Mold In Ceiling (Non - Valkyrie Related)

[carolinarider09]

Well its sort of Valkyrie related since I do own one its my ceiling but.....

The question:  Does anyone on here have an an environmentally controlled crawlspace?

The Story:

Ok, a couple of weeks ago, I noticed a small black spot in the highest point of the Great Room's Ceiling (See picture).  Its about 4 - 5 inches long and maybe 2 inches wide.  It has not grown much in size but has changed in color, gotten darker.

Its the only spot in the white ceiling which is just plain painted drywall. 

I called a couple of "mold" related firms and sort of got three responses.  One came out the next day to evaualte the mold.  One asked for pictures, the other went to voice mail.

The one that came out the next day spent about 2.5 hours here, mainly because of my questions.  He had a box of what he said was high tech stuff which measure moisture in the air, mold, temperature. I compared it to my $10 readout devices and it was similar. 

Anyway, his response was basically, "seal the crawlspace".  That is where the HVAC is and he showed us/me the "mold" in the corrugated ducting (another story).  It was not black but grey.....   Sealing requires cleaning the mold out that is down there, adding plastic and some equipment to keep it dry.

Total cost $16,000  OBTW, nothing on the proposal mentioned anything about cleaning the mold off the ceiling. 

Question:  I have heard for several years now about how good an idea it is to have your crawlspace sealed and "controlled".   But do not know of anyone who has done that.  Does anyone on here have an an environmentally controlled crawlspace?

Thanks.

[Skinhead]

I would think the area where you are getting the mold is an area that isn't well insulated and the colder area allows moisture to condense.  I would try to insulated that area better, If not accessible, drill a small hole and spray in expanding foam then spackle the hole.  Clean the area where the mold is with a mixture of bleach and TSP and repaint.

Is there any staining or water marks in that area?

[carolinarider09]

I would think the area where you are getting the mold is an area that isn't well insulated and the colder area allows moisture to condense.  I would try to insulated that area better, If not accessible, drill a small hole and spray in expanding foam then spackle the hole.  Clean the area where the mold is with a mixture of bleach and TSP and repaint.

Is there any staining or water marks in that area?

It is the "peak" of the roof, so its drywall right on the "rafters" and the roof is insulated with spray foam insulation.  I have looked and I cannot see any indication of water leakage (i.e. brown of similar spots).

I have to ask, what is TSP?  

Oh here are some pictures of the area

The outside area of the roof before the metal roofing was completed.   Yes there is a potential rain intrusion if I did not do the roofing metal correctly "attached".



And a distant view of the finished roof and yes it is possible that the area could leak but it has not done so for 12 years or so.  I will have to check, (if I ever get back up there) to see.



And this is a picture of the area where the beam joins the other beam (sorry don't have the right words) but the mold (potential leak) is in the area of the top left.

[..]

TSP Trisodium phosphate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisodium_phosphate

Wear protective gloves

[Jess from VA]

Hard for me to understand how a spot of mold at the high ceiling could be causally related to an unsealed crawlspace.  If it was the crawlspace, how come only one spot in one tall corner?

My first thought on the ceiling spot is roof leak.

My first thought on crawlspace is vent fans (maybe in and out on opposite sides)?

I have no expertise or training.  (esp. in tropical S Carolina)

One of my 10 by 12 sheds needs a new roof (it's not terrible, no leak, but a few water stains).  Two years ago, I bought a bunch of cans of that TV advertised Flex Seal spray.  Got up and cleaned it good, put on a mask, and methodically sprayed the whole old shingle roof .  No more leak or stain (and old stains have dryed out).  

The motorcycle, tool and equipment shed got a new roof (which cost more than the whole shed did).  The garden, lawnmower shed got sprayed.

[carolinarider09]

Regarding the roof leak, yes, my first thought also.  Will try and get a good look at the area around the spot and see if there are "stains". 

If it was five or six years ago, I might just put put scaffold and take a trip to the location (will might need some magnetic soled shoes). 

I have on minor concerns when ever I  attack a problem like this with "sealant". And that is if I do not do it right, I can actually re-route the water were I don't want it.   

Wish I had an actual picture of the area from a close up but I don't.

And thanks Britman TSP Trisodium Phosphate.  Rings a long un-rung bell.

[Jess from VA]

The roof leak (if that's what it is) is at or above the mold spot, gravity working.

I'd be looking at any roof joints (or flashing) at or above the spot. 

[Skinhead]

The reason I suspected an insulation problem is because it is such a localize area, like there is a draft or something that is allowing condensation to form.  Is it possible when the insulation was installed a small area was missed?  Another thing is that it is a peak, where the warm, moist air will collect.  If that spot is cold, the moist air will condense.  You don't have access to an infrared camera, do you?  There are insulation companies that may give you a "quote" and bring their camera.  Or if you had the original spray in job done, call the company that did the work and see if they will hook a dude up.  And Britman is correct, TSP=TriSodium Phosphate.  Thanks for the assist.

[carolinarider09]

The reason I suspected an insulation problem is because it is such a localize area, like there is a draft or something that is allowing condensation to form.  Is it possible when the insulation was installed a small area was missed?  Another thing is that it is a peak, where the warm, moist air will collect.  If that spot is cold, the moist air will condense.  You don't have access to an infrared camera, do you?  There are insulation companies that may give you a "quote" and bring their camera.  Or if you had the original spray in job done, call the company that did the work and see if they will hook a dude up.  And Britman is correct, TSP=TriSodium Phosphate.  Thanks for the assist.

I shall see if I can locate the insulation installer, may have records, was done 2009 or 2010 not sure. 

Heck, I may just have a "need" for an infra-red camera.  The person that came by to look at the mold (only one) did show me an infra red view and yes there were some lines but, without time to understand the display, I missed it. 

His statement was that it was at the highest point in the room.  Cool air from the HVAC system rises and since it is humid (don't know how that works since the humidity was about 40% at the register out) and that is a probable hotspot, then that is where it would form. 

I appreciate the comments, thank you. 

[da prez]

If that is foam insulation , and was not vented properly  , you have a moisture buildup in the roof. Air must be able to pass from the eaves to the peak. I passed on foam after doing a lot of research.  I have a roofer friend and an insulation installer friend. Both of them were against foam in a roof. If you develop a leak , it could take a long time to get through and the damage is extreme.

                  da prez

[carolinarider09]

If that is foam insulation , and was not vented properly  , you have a moisture buildup in the roof. Air must be able to pass from the eaves to the peak. I passed on foam after doing a lot of research.  I have a roofer friend and an insulation installer friend. Both of them were against foam in a roof. If you develop a leak , it could take a long time to get through and the damage is extreme.

                  da prez

Interesting information.   I have not heard such information or negative comments on the use of foam insulation in roofs.  I will investigate it. 

Hoever, since the entire roof structure is insulated using foam between the rafters, it is unlikely I will be removing it.  But I will keep your comments in mind.

It is the one problem I have found with "complex" metal roofing (well at least the standard roofing panels I used).  You have to place the panels in such a manner that they over laid to minimize moisture intrusion.  Not a problem on a single peaked roof.  Just overlap and you are done.  However, when you have multiple roof peaks, it gets to be a bit of a challenge.

Of course the "tar paper" that goes under the roofing panels does have an isolation potential.  Provide they are laid properly.

[_Sheffjs_]

I have no idea if it is related to your crawl space but CS encapsulation is something I would like to do to our NC home with a dehumidifier. I have a friend not far from us and we discussed helping each other do this work as he feels the need to do his as well. DIY is just abuse to the old body, but I feel it’s doable. I do know my friend did install the dehumidifier in the crawl space without sealing. Some say that is just spinning your wheels. I surely hope you do update this if you find the answer.

[sidecarwilliam]

The reason I suspected an insulation problem is because it is such a localize area, like there is a draft or something that is allowing condensation to form.  Is it possible when the insulation was installed a small area was missed?  Another thing is that it is a peak, where the warm, moist air will collect.  If that spot is cold, the moist air will condense.  You don't have access to an infrared camera, do you?  There are insulation companies that may give you a "quote" and bring their camera.  Or if you had the original spray in job done, call the company that did the work and see if they will hook a dude up.  And Britman is correct, TSP=TriSodium Phosphate.  Thanks for the assist.

I shall see if I can locate the insulation installer, may have records, was done 2009 or 2010 not sure. 

Heck, I may just have a "need" for an infra-red camera.  The person that came by to look at the mold (only one) did show me an infra red view and yes there were some lines but, without time to understand the display, I missed it. 

His statement was that it was at the highest point in the room.  Cool air from the HVAC system rises and since it is humid (don't know how that works since the humidity was about 40% at the register out) and that is a probable hotspot, then that is where it would form. 

I appreciate the comments, thank you. 

Not sure I would have much faith in a guy that tells me cold air rises.
It's not really the way it works.
I did mold work here  in CA. and I know it's different here, but...
TSP is good but a 10% bleach and water mix is best.
You can paint over with a mold resistant paint.
Mold is everywhere. To test for mold the the company runs one test in the building and one outside the building and compares the two. If the inside number is higher, mold problem, if the outside number is higher, no problem.
Its mostly BS and the reason no insurance will cover "mold problems" any longer.
Clean, Dry, Coat.
Just my 2 cents.

bill

[carolinarider09]

I have no idea if it is related to your crawl space but CS encapsulation is something I would like to do to our NC home with a dehumidifier. I have a friend not far from us and we discussed helping each other do this work as he feels the need to do his as well. DIY is just abuse to the old body, but I feel it’s doable. I do know my friend did install the dehumidifier in the crawl space without sealing. Some say that is just spinning your wheels. I surely hope you do update this if you find the answer.

Yes I will do an update with an answer, if I find one.  Probably only way to find one will be to clean the mold away and then watch for reappearance.  And that, cleaning, may not be easy.  Will need a long pole.

[carolinarider09]

Not sure I would have much faith in a guy that tells me cold air rises.
It's not really the way it works.
I did mold work here  in CA. and I know it's different here, but...
TSP is good but a 10% bleach and water mix is best.
You can paint over with a mold resistant paint.
Mold is everywhere. To test for mold the the company runs one test in the building and one outside the building and compares the two. If the inside number is higher, mold problem, if the outside number is higher, no problem.
Its mostly BS and the reason no insurance will cover "mold problems" any longer.
Clean, Dry, Coat.
Just my 2 cents.

bill

Not sure I would have much faith in a guy that tells me cold air rises.

You know, I know that and did not consider it.  I guess my thoughts were, yes its cold air and it will stay low but as it warms it might well rise. But, and here is the kicker, the upstairs area, when not being used like most of the time, is maintained at 85 degrees F.  So indeed, why would the air rise if it is 85 at the top and 78 at the bottom.  Only way would be HVAC circulation and there is no air intake upstairs (another issue, but its mine).

Oh and yes the air might be forced upwards from the HVAC vents in the floor but since the intakes are also at that same level, not much forced circulation.  Actually you would think the air up there would be warmer and dryer .  So where would the moisture come from, a leak..... Need more thought. 

Need a closer look at the spot. 

I shall see if I can get a mold test outside and inside.   

Thanks for the feedback. 

[Jersey mike]

Just from a quick look, I think you have a leak, not condensation because in reality that’s a lot of condensation to accumulate and on a constant basis in one specific location.

With a leak I would think water has found a way in, gets stuff damp and has no way of drying out.

Unfortunately it seems like you’ll have to get back up on the roof and possibly remove some of that sheet rock and do some type of water test.

Yeah I’m a bearer of bad news. Sorry about that.

[Skinhead]

Or you could save all that work and just buy mold colored paint.

[Jess from VA]

Not a proper fix for a roof leak, but I bet if it is a small leak, a half dozen cans of Flex Seal sealant sprayed around the flashing and joint seams at and above the ceiling stain (on the outside) will probably fix it for quite a while.

I have one of those three-piece aluminum extension poles that comes in handy.  (Lowes, Home Depot)

[carolinarider09]

Yeah,,,, if its a leak, it is not the best place to "access".   The metal roof is steep and slippery, even when dry.  Would have to rig up some thing to climb up the spot..


Or call someone.  The only issue I have with calling someone is "trust".   Got to find a person/group that will provide truthful service and not try to add on.   

We shall see.   Might try and clean first to see if it repeats.   

[Jersey mike]

Yeah,,,, if its a leak, it is not the best place to "access".   The metal roof is steep and slippery, even when dry.  Would have to rig up some thing to climb up the spot..


Or call someone.  The only issue I have with calling someone is "trust".   Got to find a person/group that will provide truthful service and not try to add on.   

We shall see.   Might try and clean first to see if it repeats.   

Well…from the look of the location if you’re feeling up to it, you can drill a small hole at the mold spot and use a small camera with video to inspect the area.

If it’s a leak, it could take several minutes for water to make its way down to that spot. Also, unfortunately a leak could be from wind driven rain which is very hard to replicate unless your spraying water under pressure and at various angles.

How after the completion did the spot begin?

I’m having a hard time getting my bearings with the photo of the ceiling before sheet rock, because the photo with the mold it looks like there’s an open area to the left and up maybe near an exposed rafter. Is it near the metal hanger in the before photo, because at first look I thought all the white above the mold was open for skylight and I thought there was a leak from skylight.

[Robert]

In my experience if it had been a vent problem or excess moisture problem it would not be localized into one spot and would be evident in a broad pattern over much of the surface.

 I have seen water leaks from plumbing that were there for years and one day you notice a spot very similar to what you see there. Not a big spot and the whole kitchen had to be torn out since there was a pinhole leak in a pipe put there by a screw that eventually the mold with the water spread over the whole area behind the wall. Most everything looked fine on the outside except for this one spot. We also felt the wall and it felt a bit more damp than the other walls.

I looked at the picture and there is some dark on the wood at the top most point of the joist. I would say leak like everyone else has said and yes ventilation would be in order if you do not have enough.

The picture is not really clear but what is behind the wall that you pictured? It would be pretty easy to drill or dig that out and see if there is water behind it or its soft. That would give a much better idea if the water is behind that wall or on the surface and if its an actual drip or water is collecting there.

I would not put any sealer until I establish where and what the cause is. Clorox and another product I found Spray Nine with the Clorox has been really good at eliminating any mold seen. Spray Nine has a disinfectant in it that seems to be very good at removing mold.

Most of the houses in Tallahassee have a crawl space below the house this is environmentally controlled since the floor of this space is covered in plastic and part of the house AC/heat system. There is no access to the house expect through some vents and returns to this space.  Sometimes though they are just a dirt floor. I doubt you need to do this to your space but there needs to be enough venting of that space to remove the moisture and condensation.

If you check the codes in your area you should be able to get a good idea at what they feel is good to have for ventilation.

Nice house by the way and an awesome addition to the original looks.

[da prez]

It is almost always a ventilation issue. As hard as it is , everything else is just a patch that prolongs the inevitable.
 Also , we would use pool shock for mold cleanups.

           da prez

[carolinarider09]

Well…from the look of the location if you’re feeling up to it, you can drill a small hole at the mold spot and use a small camera with video to inspect the area.

If it’s a leak, it could take several minutes for water to make its way down to that spot. Also, unfortunately a leak could be from wind driven rain which is very hard to replicate unless your spraying water under pressure and at various angles.

How after the completion did the spot begin?

I’m having a hard time getting my bearings with the photo of the ceiling before sheet rock, because the photo with the mold it looks like there’s an open area to the left and up maybe near an exposed rafter. Is it near the metal hanger in the before photo, because at first look I thought all the white above the mold was open for skylight and I thought there was a leak from skylight.

I will inlcude the image again with the interior area circled.  Its were the beam that forms the peak of that part of the roof goes outward to the outside wall.  All the rafters come down from it to the top of the great room wall.  That metal piece you see is the "thing" that is used to join the pieces.  There is no sky light. only a window in the outer wall in the great room. 

The roof was finalized in say 20011.  So its ten years old.  (well ten years since fully finished.). The leak occurred over the last few weeks and yes, we had one heck of a rain storm about four or so weeks ago. Really heavy rain and wind.  It was something I thought about is a possible source of the leak (if there was one). 

I think I said this before but, based on the information here and my own thoughts, I believe I will try and remove the stain my methods suggested in this thread and see if the mold re-appears. 

[carolinarider09]

In my experience if it had been a vent problem or excess moisture problem it would not be localized into one spot and would be evident in a broad pattern over much of the surface.

 I have seen water leaks from plumbing that were there for years and one day you notice a spot very similar to what you see there. Not a big spot and the whole kitchen had to be torn out since there was a pinhole leak in a pipe put there by a screw that eventually the mold with the water spread over the whole area behind the wall. Most everything looked fine on the outside except for this one spot. We also felt the wall and it felt a bit more damp than the other walls.

I looked at the picture and there is some dark on the wood at the top most point of the joist. I would say leak like everyone else has said and yes ventilation would be in order if you do not have enough.

The picture is not really clear but what is behind the wall that you pictured? It would be pretty easy to drill or dig that out and see if there is water behind it or its soft. That would give a much better idea if the water is behind that wall or on the surface and if its an actual drip or water is collecting there.

I would not put any sealer until I establish where and what the cause is. Clorox and another product I found Spray Nine with the Clorox has been really good at eliminating any mold seen. Spray Nine has a disinfectant in it that seems to be very good at removing mold.

Most of the houses in Tallahassee have a crawl space below the house this is environmentally controlled since the floor of this space is covered in plastic and part of the house AC/heat system. There is no access to the house expect through some vents and returns to this space.  Sometimes though they are just a dirt floor. I doubt you need to do this to your space but there needs to be enough venting of that space to remove the moisture and condensation.

If you check the codes in your area you should be able to get a good idea at what they feel is good to have for ventilation.

Nice house by the way and an awesome addition to the original looks.

Thanks for the comments about the house.  I will endeavor to provide some additional information on how that part of the roof comes together.

That peak point is mounted to a beam that runs the length of the room.  The ceiling slopes downward and I can go up in the attic (and have) and inspected the area where the beam runs from left to right which is where the roof peak beam is mounted and there is no discoloration. 

I truly wish I had some way of putting on a jet pack so I could get a closer look and actually feel it.  But..

[da prez]

Looking closer at the pictures  , I do not see ventilation.
 A leak in a roof that was foam insulated can take a long time to leak thru. Take a good look at the eaves for any signs of water. I hate to be a downer  ,but I still do a lot of home repairs. I no longer go on roofs or in crawlspaces.

            da prez

[Jess from VA]

I have said a possible roof leak "at or above" the inside stain.

Heavy rain and wind can blow water uphill inside the roof, to then leak down.

[sidecarwilliam]

In my experience if it had been a vent problem or excess moisture problem it would not be localized into one spot and would be evident in a broad pattern over much of the surface.

 I have seen water leaks from plumbing that were there for years and one day you notice a spot very similar to what you see there. Not a big spot and the whole kitchen had to be torn out since there was a pinhole leak in a pipe put there by a screw that eventually the mold with the water spread over the whole area behind the wall. Most everything looked fine on the outside except for this one spot. We also felt the wall and it felt a bit more damp than the other walls.

I looked at the picture and there is some dark on the wood at the top most point of the joist. I would say leak like everyone else has said and yes ventilation would be in order if you do not have enough.

The picture is not really clear but what is behind the wall that you pictured? It would be pretty easy to drill or dig that out and see if there is water behind it or its soft. That would give a much better idea if the water is behind that wall or on the surface and if its an actual drip or water is collecting there.

I would not put any sealer until I establish where and what the cause is. Clorox and another product I found Spray Nine with the Clorox has been really good at eliminating any mold seen. Spray Nine has a disinfectant in it that seems to be very good at removing mold.

Most of the houses in Tallahassee have a crawl space below the house this is environmentally controlled since the floor of this space is covered in plastic and part of the house AC/heat system. There is no access to the house expect through some vents and returns to this space.  Sometimes though they are just a dirt floor. I doubt you need to do this to your space but there needs to be enough venting of that space to remove the moisture and condensation.

If you check the codes in your area you should be able to get a good idea at what they feel is good to have for ventilation.

Nice house by the way and an awesome addition to the original looks.

I would be VERY careful of mixing anything with Clorox because you can make chlorine gas which can kill you. 
We had aa problem here like that and the person died from mixing Clorox with ammonia containing cleaner to get a quicker clean.
Bleach will kill ANY mold it comes in contact with.
Be careful.

[Jersey mike]

In my experience if it had been a vent problem or excess moisture problem it would not be localized into one spot and would be evident in a broad pattern over much of the surface.

 I have seen water leaks from plumbing that were there for years and one day you notice a spot very similar to what you see there. Not a big spot and the whole kitchen had to be torn out since there was a pinhole leak in a pipe put there by a screw that eventually the mold with the water spread over the whole area behind the wall. Most everything looked fine on the outside except for this one spot. We also felt the wall and it felt a bit more damp than the other walls.

I looked at the picture and there is some dark on the wood at the top most point of the joist. I would say leak like everyone else has said and yes ventilation would be in order if you do not have enough.

The picture is not really clear but what is behind the wall that you pictured? It would be pretty easy to drill or dig that out and see if there is water behind it or its soft. That would give a much better idea if the water is behind that wall or on the surface and if its an actual drip or water is collecting there.

I would not put any sealer until I establish where and what the cause is. Clorox and another product I found Spray Nine with the Clorox has been really good at eliminating any mold seen. Spray Nine has a disinfectant in it that seems to be very good at removing mold.

Most of the houses in Tallahassee have a crawl space below the house this is environmentally controlled since the floor of this space is covered in plastic and part of the house AC/heat system. There is no access to the house expect through some vents and returns to this space.  Sometimes though they are just a dirt floor. I doubt you need to do this to your space but there needs to be enough venting of that space to remove the moisture and condensation.

If you check the codes in your area you should be able to get a good idea at what they feel is good to have for ventilation.

Nice house by the way and an awesome addition to the original looks.

Thanks for the comments about the house.  I will endeavor to provide some additional information on how that part of the roof comes together.

That peak point is mounted to a beam that runs the length of the room.  The ceiling slopes downward and I can go up in the attic (and have) and inspected the area where the beam runs from left to right which is where the roof peak beam is mounted and there is no discoloration. 

I truly wish I had some way of putting on a jet pack so I could get a closer look and actually feel it.  But..

After realizing the photos you gave us they can be clicked on and blown up better on post image the dark spots on the double ridge joist that runs to the front windows Robert referred to could be the culprit. Typically those dark spots ar an indicator of some water. Starting with the roof would be the best bet. It could be as simple as one of the screws but which one will be tough to figure out.

It really seems there is a lot of coverage over the seams and the ridge caps but a screw which didn’t grab or may be stripped and loose or even a screw that was relocated and the hole not addressed with a sealant may be the issue. I like Roberts idea of opening it up to see if it feels damp or went back there.

If venting is the issue or you want to try venting, start small with something like a round 2” or 3”soffit vent and spray paint it white to blend in, I don’t think anyone would even notice it.

[carolinarider09]

Thanks Jersey Mike:

Something I sort of left out which may make some sense, my wife and I built the house.  With the exception of the HVAC, sewage and water piping we did it all.  Oh, I tired to do the foam but it failed, so it and the gutters along the roof edge were farmed out to "professionals".

As such, some of the framing members were exposed to "weather" for some months until the basic roof coverings could be added.  This exposure did result in discoloration but I have yet to find any...... (best not to speak of it out loud). 

Something I find very interesting are the screws used in the metal roofing.  I forget the vendor but I put all screws in per manufacturers recommendations.  I tried not to over crush the little "rubber" washers.  Over the years, three or four screws "unscrew" from the metal.  The back out on their own.  I suspect by temperature change but it only happens on the more "vertical part of the roof and the lower levels. 

Also I want to thank everyone for their comments on this off topic.  I really appreciate any feedback.  One never knows it all. 

Here are some pictures showing the way it was put together. 

The vertical support and ridge:  March 2008



All trusses (?) in place. June 2008



Initial covering:  July 2008



Final Tarpaper covering:  September 2008



Oh, and just for fun, wife's first use of the "chop" saw. 

[carolinarider09]

I have said a possible roof leak "at or above" the inside stain.

Heavy rain and wind can blow water uphill inside the roof, to then leak down.

Jess, that is a possibility.  Looking at the way the roof was sealed in that area tar paper and metal sheeting, it is possible and we did have a very powerful rain storm several weeks before the spot appeared. 

[NautiBrit]

I'm a retired insurance repair contractor and mold remediation was a major part of my job. You've got plenty of good advice on the cause of the leak, but I would suggest a simple method to remove stains is to spray the area with a 50:50 bleach/ distilled water solution and allow it to dry. Repeat, if necessary and use 100% bleach if the stain is stubborn. Of course, wear safety glasses and a mask.

[carolinarider09]

I'm a retired insurance repair contractor and mold remediation was a major part of my job. You've got plenty of good advice on the cause of the leak, but I would suggest a simple method to remove stains is to spray the area with a 50:50 bleach/ distilled water solution and allow it to dry. Repeat, if necessary and use 100% bleach if the stain is stubborn. Of course, wear safety glasses and a mask.

Thanks... only issue is getting up there.

After looking at some new photos of the area, taken from a distance, I do believe there was/is may have been, a small leak there. 

Will be contacting some roofing specialists in the coming week to have estimates of investigation and repair. 

[Rams]

It is almost always a ventilation issue. As hard as it is , everything else is just a patch that prolongs the inevitable.
 Also , we would use pool shock for mold cleanups.

           da prez

This I agree with.   

You must first determine where the moisture is coming from.   Once that is identified and repaired, then, address the mold issue.   I have addressed mold issues previously and have been moderately successful.   I used bleach but I'm sure there are better treatments to kill the mold I encountered. 

I would suggest that once you've taken the steps above, increase the ventilation in the attic area.   Mold needs a humid (wet) environment.    A couple of fans running most of the time should do the trick.    You might even be able to get fans that are controlled by a humidity switch.   Fans come on when the humidity is high and shut off when not needed.

Reference your HVAC, I'd consider a UV light installed into the HVAC, they were very popular at the beginning and middle of the COVID pandemic but, they exposed the air passing through the HVAC system and kill all kinds of mold and virus.   

Rams   

[carolinarider09]

Rams:  I will keep your comments in mind.  There are some "how evers"

The building is theoretically sealed.  We had a guy with a doorway mounted blower that came in and make sure the house was fairly "air tight".  Well as much as reasonable I guess.

I have considered "house ventilation" and did install some pipes that are situated outside the house's "containment".  I never connected them.  Mainly because I was at a quandary.

I don't mind sucking in clean air (it would require a filter) but it would be clean humid air usually.

If I suck in clean air, I have to have a way of getting the air out.  I guess the house is probably not that air tight but, in theory, the fan would sort of "pressurize" the building.  Not really a big deal just a deal.

So, I shall see what can be done with the air vents I have installed.  They can be used, its just the outside location of the pipes is covered with the porch ceiling. 

The roof is sealed so that there is no specific access to the roof (unless you remove the insulation that is blown in) from inside the house.  I have been in the attic and its really pretty clean and dry, considering.

[Robert]

I would be VERY careful of mixing anything with Clorox because you can make chlorine gas which can kill you. 
We had aa problem here like that and the person died from mixing Clorox with ammonia containing cleaner to get a quicker clean.
Bleach will kill ANY mold it comes in contact with.
Be careful.

Yup totally agree but by experience and not dead yet, its ok 

Clorox with ammonia is super deadly and quickly. I killed a couple of rats with this mixture.

 Some tell you that you can mix the two and you can in the correct amount but honestly its just too dangerous and there are better ways to deal with most of the issues you would use this with.

[Robert]

Rams:  I will keep your comments in mind.  There are some "how evers"

The building is theoretically sealed.  We had a guy with a doorway mounted blower that came in and make sure the house was fairly "air tight".  Well as much as reasonable I guess.

I have considered "house ventilation" and did install some pipes that are situated outside the house's "containment".  I never connected them.  Mainly because I was at a quandary.

I don't mind sucking in clean air (it would require a filter) but it would be clean humid air usually.

If I suck in clean air, I have to have a way of getting the air out.  I guess the house is probably not that air tight but, in theory, the fan would sort of "pressurize" the building.  Not really a big deal just a deal.

So, I shall see what can be done with the air vents I have installed.  They can be used, its just the outside location of the pipes is covered with the porch ceiling. 

The roof is sealed so that there is no specific access to the roof (unless you remove the insulation that is blown in) from inside the house.  I have been in the attic and its really pretty clean and dry, considering.

In closed houses or super efficient houses, there is a heat exchanger that takes the heat or cool from the air in the house and mixes it with a certain amount of fresh air. All the time keeping the heat or cool air in the house, yet providing some fresh air from the outside.

Here is some information.

https://home-energy.extension.org/choosing-an-air-to-air-exchanger-system/

One way to minimize air quality and moisture problems in a home, without opening a window, is by the installation of a mechanical ventilation system such as an air-to-air heat exchanger. An air-to-air heat exchanger brings two air streams of different temperatures into thermal contact, transferring heat from the exhausting inside air to incoming outside air during the heating season.

In summer, the heat exchanger can cool and in some cases, dehumidify the hot outside air passing through it and into the house for ventilation. The air-to-air heat exchanger removes the excess humidity and flushes out odors and pollutants generated indoors.
*****

If you install a humistat or hygrometer you would know the moisture level of the house or space that you want to monitor. Perfect humidity is around 45 to 55 % but I dont think just plain humidity is your problem, I think its a leak.

You could also get a Nest or other newer electric remote thermostat since not only could you control humidity somewhat with them but it will show you the humidity level as a feature of the thermostat.

I have never found dehumidifiers a good alternative to clean well ventilated air since they do not circulate the air enough to pull a suffecint amount of moisture from the air. I would rather run an ac unit in the summer time since that is when the humidity will be the highest and have the condensation, be outside and have ac in the space.

[carolinarider09]

Robert, just becuase I am a bit of a Nerd, we have small devices in various parts of the house that measure temperature and humidity.  

Right now

Enclosed porch connected to Great Room reads 77 degrees F and 45% (the doora are open and it does have its on mini split HVAC, so they are sort of a common space)

Weather Station in bookcase in Great Room 80 degrees F and 52%. (might be a little off because of internet device for comms adds heat to the interior)

Dinning room (sitting on the orchid tray my wife has which is a little more humid... 72 degrees F and 54%

Now, these devices are not "industry grade" devices but I firmly believe the humidity in the house is around 52% range and temperature is around 78 degrees.  

I sent a message to another local roofing company today.  Will see if I get a response.

[Robert]

Robert, just becuase I am a bit of a Nerd, we have small devices in various parts of the house that measure temperature and humidity. 

Right now

Enclosed porch connected to Great Room reads 77 degrees F and 45% (the doora are open and it does have its on mini split HVAC, so they are sort of a common space)

Weather Station in bookcase in Great Room 80 degrees F and 52%. (might be a little off because of internet device for comms adds heat to the interior)

Dinning room (sitting on the orchid tray my wife has which is a little more humid... 72 degrees F and 54%

Now, these devices are not "industry grade" devices but I firmly believe the humidity in the house is around 52% range and temperature is around 78 degrees. 

I sent a message to another local roofing company today.  Will see if I get a response.

Nice to know that there is someone with the same nerd issues. 

That is super as humidity levels. My house varies from about 50% to 61% most of the time. I put a bigger ac condenser on the outside when I was having a problem with the ac. I was worried the unit does a really good job at cooling that it would not pull the moisture from the air enough, but it is fine.

The reason I know about how it looks when you have no leak and mold on one of the inside closets I was getting the start of these black specs. Not in one spot but in the general top area and found out it was the start of mold with poor circulation and temp control. Since I went to the bigger unit I have had no problems at all. 

Hope your issues are not to extensive

[carolinarider09]

Thanks Robert.   

I wish I had an antigravity belt and could just float up there and look and then float up over the roof outside and look. 

I may just have to by a "drone" so I can do that. 

[carolinarider09]

So... Here is an update:

Week before last we had a gentlemen come in to look at the leak from a company called BioTec.  The gentlemen, it turns out, was the owner. The company is managed by he and his wife and they have a small office but a reasonable number of employees working for him. 

He stated (as I noted in a previous post) that the most probably cause of the mold was change in environmental conditions inside the house.   Just like "things happen".   His fix was to seal the crawl space.

That is something we had wanted to do and to also provide a ventilation path to and from the outside to keep the air inside sort of fresh.

The cost to seal the crawl space and install system to maintain the humidity and temperature is about $16,000.   Time to complete three to seven days.   End result sealed and environmentally controlled crawlspace.  Downside (besides the price) they highly recommend that we replace the corrugated HVAC ducting.

I sent him some questions and got a message back but the questions were not answered. Probably an oversight on his part.  When I stopped by their office today I discussed this with his wife (co- owners).

On the way home, I stopped by a local roofing contractor who specialized in metal roofs, Achelpohl Roofing & Sheetmetal, Inc.  Business is family owned, son taking over from father five years ago (business is 30 years old).   I spoke with the owner about the problem and he sent out a tech to look at the roof.  He climbed to the top of the roof area which would be the location of the suspected leak and found all things in fairly good condition. 

He did note that there were some cracks in the calk at the joint area and he applied additional sealant.  He said that I might received a bill or not, depending.   I sent them an email thanking them and providing my mailing address.  The gentlemen said he did not suspect a roof leak in the area but...

Later this afternoon a gentlemen came in from Servpro to look at the leak.  His basic response was the mold was the result of one of two things.   A small leak that might have happened during a recent rain storm which had high winds and heavy rains.   No indiction of additional leaking around the area.   

Or.....just normal for homes with ceilings like this.  Does not happen all the time but is not unknown.  Always happens at the high point of the ceiling and the black mold just sort of starts due to humidity in the room and always starts at the highest point.  The only difference is that, in the ones he has seen, the mold will extend the whole length of the ceiling. 

His final comment.... Don't worry about it.  It will disappear. 

What we are going to do

We are continuing negations with the BioTec gentlemen because we do believe the sealed crawl space will improve the living conditions in the home.  And, as we get older and stay inside more, this may, might, could have an impact on our health.  It is expensive but then is falling ill. 

Other impacts, if we do as the Biotec guy wishes, we ill have to replace the HVAC ducting.  The HVAC system is 12 years old.  It has a "condenser" which is corroding and will need replacement in the coming years.  Cost ...... $3,000 (more or less).   

Again, looking to the future and assuming we can stay in this house for the next 10 years (I will be 86), doing the HVAC replacement in a planned manner would also be beneficial.  Only real drawback is that thanks to the current President, we lost about 10% in the retirement funds. 

The end result would be a home which might well provide a healthier environment for our future and eliminate the need to have hte HVAC fail and need replacement (not counting the need to change the ductwork). 

Just wanted to provide information on what we have learned ..