Blackstone Labs results

[WintrSol]

Most tests are in the normal range, with a few a bit higher than the universal average. But, the copper reading is very elevated; universal average is 8, but my engine tested at 26. My questions are, where does the copper come from? And why so much? Something I should look for?

[Challenger]

Do you have a base UOA or is this your first?
You almost have to compare UOAs to see if something is changing.
Copper is a component of Bronze and Brass which are used in transmissions, shifters, bearings, sleeves, and other areas. Could be coming from trans or a coolant leak or could be normal.

[WintrSol]

First sample for the Valkyrie. Didn't think there were that many bronze/brass bearings. No coolant leaks, so likely the transmission.

[98valk]

can u post the report? I have an amsoil book for UOA results I can look up.

[WintrSol]

[98valk]

this is the company https://www.oaitesting.com/

in their book I have for gasoline engine 5-30 for copper is normal. up to 100ppm is abnormal and 300ppmis excessive. 1 or 2 ppm can be from copper as an additive in some motor oils.

I've used both companies yrs ago surprise that before they didn't list common avg for GL1500 engine or at least that is what they said. pulled out some of my reports they listed copper avg the same.

fuel dilution causes higher copper wear.
in their manual transmission chart copper can be from clutch faces. which is most likely is your issue, since on bobistheoilguy.com most GL1500 engines will show copper at 11ppm, even my reports had same.

oil your using is a 20w50, too thick for your conditions causing higher wear? I've read this yrs ago that a 20w50 is too thick for many engine bearing and journals unless needed for racing, towing in mountains, high ambient temps, towing, desert, etc.
report shows your oil is low for phosphorus and zinc, esp., phosphorus which has been stated over the yrs keep bearings/journals happy.
GL1500 engines were designed in the '80s for a certain higher levels of phosphorus and zinc which were closer to 1500ppm.  Honda saw the coming EPA changes to motor oils and used upgraded bearings and journals for the valkyrie and '97 to '00 Goldwing engines, however the oils have gotten even worst from oil specs in '97.

suggest you read my '17 post
https://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,96825.0.html

the one link address has changed to https://pqia.org/heavy-duty-diesel-engine-oil/  if u click on an oil can see every that is in it including zinc and phosphorus levels

why only certain diesel oils should be used
https://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,65911.0.html

Ford specification WSS-M2C171-F1 requires higher levels of phosphorus and zinc. not all diesel oils are meeting this spec. all rotella's do.
https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/additionalinfo/Ford%20Motor%20Company%20CK-4%20FA-4%20Position%20Statement.pdf


so my opinion use a diesel oil. IMHO the 20w50 is your problem. even though the report doesn't show a fuel dilution, I would still look into it, such as colder temps whereas the engine oil never gets to operating temp 220F for a long enough time, idle mixture screws are set to rich, etc. Also consider your clutch technique or were u just playing hard with the bike doing high rpm shifting than normal for this oil test?

Hope all of that helps and puts u in a good direction.

[WintrSol]

It is this company: https://www.blackstone-labs.com/

I use the 20W50 because I often pulled a 700#-plus trailer, and don't want that extra load do wear the transmission. It is on the oil range list, especially for higher temperatures, which is often the conditions I ride. Gets real hot from here through eastern Tennessee. I haven't found a suitable 20w40, though I admit I didn't look real hard for one.

[98valk]

It is this company: https://www.blackstone-labs.com/

I use the 20W50 because I often pulled a 700#-plus trailer, and don't want that extra load do wear the transmission. It is on the oil range list, especially for higher temperatures, which is often the conditions I ride. Gets real hot from here through eastern Tennessee. I haven't found a suitable 20w40, though I admit I didn't look real hard for one.

well the UOA shows its not working well enough
actually the best oil to use is a straight 30w diesel for great protection.
Last time a checked a few yrs ago all 20w40 oils got hit by the evil epa to have lower zinc and phophorus.


I use to use this Amsoil, best oil I ever used, after 2 yrs and 10k miles UOA came back low wear and still good to use. The bike shifted like butter the whole time.
 https://www.syntheticoildistributor.com/DieselOils/acd-10w30sae30.html
It actually was rated and used in commercial diesel automatic transmissions.
it was discontinued and replaced by a high performance 10w30 diesel oil. there is a buy button on the link that redirects to the new oil. 14/qt, ouch.

The GL1500 transmission gears have certain type of cut gears that don't wear easily. I posted about that yrs ago.
a diesel oil is designed for high shear due to the long piston strokes. Diesel oil is best to use.  I would use rotellas 15w40 semi diesel oil. I wouldn't use the 5w40 when pulling the trailer.  u can find UOAs on similar setup with that oil.

enjoy!

[WintrSol]

I can always add ZDDP, to bump up the zinc and phosphorous levels, if needed, but mc rated oils *should* have adequate levels. Too high, and they actually cause problems.

Currently using Amsoil motorcycle oil, BTW.

[98valk]

I can always add ZDDP, to bump up the zinc and phosphorous levels, if needed, but mc rated oils *should* have adequate levels. Too high, and they actually cause problems.

Currently using Amsoil motorcycle oil, BTW.

nope all rated motorcycle oils have low levels zinc and phosphorous, started a few yrs ago, again due to epa all to save the catalytic converters.

I was an Amsoil dealer back in the early 90s.  back then they didn't have a bottle labeled as motorcycle oil. their 10w40 and 20w50 auto bottles listed on the bottle good for motorcycles.  so maybe late '90s early '00 they took those oils and put them in motorcycle specific oil bottles and their sales took off and cost more than the auto bottles for the same oil. later on they added higher % of rust prevent additives due to many cycles sitting for months.   pretty much nothing special about the oils today compared to off the shelf oils today. their test comparisons show in important wear areas not much better or same as diesel oils. I stopped using their 10w40 oil when two times in a row UOA showed oil downgraded to a 10w30 oil, wear numbers were find though. so then I used rotela 15w40, did UOA, stayed in grade and wear numbers were where they should be. that was in early '00. been diesel ever since. amsoil 15w40 diesel has always been highly rated and low cost per UOAs on bobistheoilguy.
 
https://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,65911.0.html   
why only a heavy duty diesel oil should be used
« on: March 25, 2014, 07:32:47 AM »
   
see article  Two-wheelers love oil too!

Article states JASO specs are loose on phosphorus.
JASO spec'd motorcycle oil are basically the same specs as heavy-duty diesel oil standards.
JASO does not test oils, manufactures pay a fee to JASO and state their oil meets the specs.

see article, another grade for the heavy-duty upgrade?

some UOAs including mine. since the engine was still new I was changing oil early to get wear metals out. I don't do it now

https://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,17708.0.html

[WintrSol]

nope all rated motorcycle oils have low levels zinc and phosphorous, started a few yrs ago, again due to epa all to save the catalytic converters.

That must be a very recent change. Note the phosphorus level is 820 and zinc is 1015 after 6k miles; my test of the oil in my Pontiac a few years ago showed them at 677 and 762 after only 1760 miles. Since both are used by the engine, I'd say the mc oil had higher levels to begin with, since they were higher after ~4 times the mileage. I read beginning levels should be no higher than about 1200 and 1500, or problems occurred (don't recall the values exactly, but that's a ballpark estimate). For vehicles with cat converters, it should be much  lower than that, as evidenced by the lower numbers in my car.

[98valk]

nope all rated motorcycle oils have low levels zinc and phosphorous, started a few yrs ago, again due to epa all to save the catalytic converters.

That must be a very recent change. Note the phosphorus level is 820 and zinc is 1015 after 6k miles; my test of the oil in my Pontiac a few years ago showed them at 677 and 762 after only 1760 miles. Since both are used by the engine, I'd say the mc oil had higher levels to begin with, since they were higher after ~4 times the mileage. I read beginning levels should be no higher than about 1200 and 1500, or problems occurred (don't recall the values exactly, but that's a ballpark estimate). For vehicles with cat converters, it should be much  lower than that, as evidenced by the lower numbers in my car.

2016 they lowered them,  latest std 2023. they keep talking about modern engines, not ours designed in the '80s
https://www.lubesngreases.com/magazine/29_9/jaso-motorcycle-oil-specification-gets-a-facelift/

[WintrSol]

Interesting article. I note that the minimum phosphorus has remained the same, just the upper limit reduced. Also, they mention " novel antiwear components", but must be referring to probably proprietary materials.
Guess I'll need to add some ZDDP with the next oil change; maybe not the full amount, but some.

EDIT: I looked one up on the Amsoil site, and the SDS shows ZDDP content as 0.1-1% by weight. Wonder what that means in ppm? I sent them a question about it, to see what the response will be.

[98valk]

Interesting article. I note that the minimum phosphorus has remained the same, just the upper limit reduced. Also, they mention " novel antiwear components", but must be referring to probably proprietary materials.
Guess I'll need to add some ZDDP with the next oil change; maybe not the full amount, but some.

EDIT: I looked one up on the Amsoil site, and the SDS shows ZDDP content as 0.1-1% by weight. Wonder what that means in ppm? I sent them a question about it, to see what the response will be.

amsoil got secret over the yrs even more so after the founder died.

many have sworn over this oil for decades. u want a high shear oil
  https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g473.pdf

 SG or SF are the oil specs called for GL1500 back in the early '90s

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/what-zinc-limits-levels-for-sm-sj-sh-sg-sf-etc.73571/

[WintrSol]

Didn't save the link, but that site also had a list of Mobil 1 oils, and the racing equivalent; the non-race versions were all about 800 or so, while the racing versions were in the neighborhood of 1100. I guess they assume racing engines don't have cat converters.
Of course, those oils wouldn't have the high-shear rating of diesel and mc oils; in any case, not mentioned there.

[98valk]

so went back to some of my notes.   

zinc is actually the last line of defense for when the oil boundary level btwn metal parts is lost.  all the newer oils are about shear and boundary levels since losing the boundary is not good. the place zinc and phosphorus is needed the most is the tappets, rocket arm, contact points to the cam lobes. GL1500 engines its rocker arm contact to valve tip and directly sliding on the cam lobe.

since most modern engines now use roller cams, this is why they started to use less zinc, phosphorus is a contaminant to the catalytic convertor and why they lowered that.

[F6Dave]

Below is a pair of results from my '99 Interstate at over 100,000 miles. The first test was with Mobil 1 15W-50 and the second with Rotella T4 15W-40. In both cases copper was well below GL1500 averages. I also tested my '99 Tourer at 176,000 miles and it was a bit higher at 6 PPM, but still below the Valk averages. I've used Blackstone dozens of times for 9 vehicles and metals are always close their universal averages for the specific vehicle, so if any number came in high I'd follow up with another test.

[F6Dave]

While I said my Blackstone results have been close to their universal averages, there is an exception: new engines. Last year I bought an Acura TLX Type S, so my garage has another 6 cylinder Honda. At the initial oil change at 7,300 miles, metals and silicon were much higher than their universal averages. They told me that not only is this typical, but they don't even use samples from initial changes to calculate their averages.

[WintrSol]

Got a better response from Amsoil; first was a little vague.
'New technologies in the chemical refinement processes. Higher quality ZDDP is now being produced so less of it is needed for a formulation to give the same results. Just like the evolution of wheels from wooden cartwheels to today's tires. Chemist's start with the rough draft and refine it to be something better through technology and time. So, the ZDDP of the 70's and the ZDDP of today would not be used in the same quantity because of the advances in the refinement process and the quality of today's engineering.'
So, that explains why JASO reduced the maximum content.