A religious question for Robert.

[Bobbo]

“The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.”

 Why unlearn the truth? It's been said before that science has been proven wrong more than
once. God has NEVER  been proven wrong. Maybe Alvin is illiterate?

That statement can only be made by someone who has no understanding of the scientific principal.  Science does not seek to prove anything.  Science is an ever expanding and evolving understanding of our physical world based on observable and testable evidence, including the practical application of those theories.  Religion does not have that capability.  Take my previous post about the Biblical description of pi as 3.00000.  It is easily disproven.  Do Biblical scholars make any attempt to correct this obvious error?  No.

[Bobbo]

Did you read the article you posted on the Buffalo man. The adultery charges were dropped, he was being tried for bumping monkeys in public on a pic nix table.   Dam those pagans.

Yes it was dropped, but the "felony" charge of adultery was used as leverage by the prosecution.

They dropped it after he agreed to plead guilty to the misdemeanor charges.

Interestingly enough since he didn't show for sentencing I suspose that they could now reinstate the adultery charge if they wanted to.

They dropped it because it was an unenforceable and obsolete law.  These “moral laws” were surreptitiously added to the code at a time when most people were illiterate and incapable of objecting to it.  Government elitism at it’s worst!  All of these antique laws that have been challenged in court have been repealed.

[Robert]

Is it the law that gives justice or men? We have from the beginning of creation had laws written in our hearts the laws God has established in us. If you go back even to Adam and Eve that is where the trouble started. Is Innocence the absence of evil? We have more laws on the books today so all could be arrested this very moment for breaking them. We are all law breakers today.

 
Gen 3:7  Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.


When God gave the law to Moses it was called the law of sin and death but it didn't mean that there was no law before that. It was so now a standard could be held up and you would know what you have done wrong. It is a spiritual law too. So it wasn't only the letter of the law you broke but it revealed the deeper problem of people not being able to keep a law which was sin or condition or thoughts in their hearts. When Jesus said I come for a church without spot or wrinkle do you think He is going to ask did you conform to all the laws on the books? Our eyes have focused for to long on what the world thinks and not long enough on what God thinks especially on what we do daily. Where man looks at the results of decisions God looks at the birth of the action

Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Rom 5:13  for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
 
Our founding fathers knew all to well these words written  that the laws written were holy unsuitable to govern these United States without morals. They had vision and knew the Lord and understood that no law could restrict men without their hearts being right. We have come so far and our vision is so dim we cannot see that without the cleansing of God in our life we are nothing but filthy rags. God help us. Sin clouds vision brings along confusion leads to desperation then to destruction.

[SANDMAN5]

That statement can only be made by someone who has no understanding of the scientific principal.  Science does not seek to prove anything.  Science is an ever expanding and evolving understanding of our physical world based on observable and testable evidence, including the practical application of those theories.  Religion does not have that capability.  Take my previous post about the Biblical description of pi as 3.00000.  It is easily disproven.  Do Biblical scholars make any attempt to correct this obvious error?  No.

There are times when we can believe either science or God, not both. I choose God EVERY time.
Science not trying to prove anything?? Then what's it good for?
If it accidentally 'proves' something then what happens when they get new 'evidence'?
"Oh, that stuff we 'proved' last year...uh...never mind." 
Where exactly in the Bible is pi mentioned? I'd like to research it a little before I comment.

[Bobbo]

There are times when we can believe either science or God, not both. I choose God EVERY time.
Science not trying to prove anything?? Then what's it good for?
If it accidentally 'proves' something then what happens when they get new 'evidence'?
"Oh, that stuff we 'proved' last year...uh...never mind." 

You might not want to continue your rant.  It will only strengthen my previous point.

Where exactly in the Bible is pi mentioned? I'd like to research it a little before I comment.

I guess you haven’t actually read the Bible either.

The passage is in 1 Kings 7:23.  It describes a sea of 10 cubits in diameter and 30 cubits in circumference.

[Robert]

and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about; this was the circumference of it; which answers to the diameter of ten cubits, or near it, a round number being given not strictly mathematical.

(Sceptics have ridiculed the Bible for saying that the mathematical constant π is 3 instead of the more precise 3.14159. (This number is an "irrational number" and needs an infinite number digits to specify it exactly.) Two explanations for the apparent lack of precision in the measurement are given.

1) The circumference given may be for the inside circumference and the diameter may be the diameter including the thickness of the rim. This would yield a very accurate mathematical result for the inside circumference of thirty cubits. The outside circumference would be about 31.4 cubits giving a rim thickness of four inches or an hand breadth agreeing with 1Ki_7:26.

2) In 1Ki_7:26 we read the vessel "was wrought like the brim of a cup." That is the brim on the top of the vessel was wider than the main part of the vessel. The diameter would be given for the brim. If the brim or lip extended about four inches past the main body of the vessel then the outside circumference of the main part of the vessel would be exactly thirty cubits.

In each case the mathematical ratio for circumference of the circle is π d, where "d" is the diameter and π is the number 3.14159 .

Guess you havent really looked for a explanation

[Bobbo]

and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about; this was the circumference of it; which answers to the diameter of ten cubits, or near it, a round number being given not strictly mathematical.

(Sceptics have ridiculed the Bible for saying that the mathematical constant π is 3 instead of the more precise 3.14159. (This number is an "irrational number" and needs an infinite number digits to specify it exactly.) Two explanations for the apparent lack of precision in the measurement are given.

1) The circumference given may be for the inside circumference and the diameter may be the diameter including the thickness of the rim. This would yield a very accurate mathematical result for the inside circumference of thirty cubits. The outside circumference would be about 31.4 cubits giving a rim thickness of four inches or an hand breadth agreeing with 1Ki_7:26.

2) In 1Ki_7:26 we read the vessel "was wrought like the brim of a cup." That is the brim on the top of the vessel was wider than the main part of the vessel. The diameter would be given for the brim. If the brim or lip extended about four inches past the main body of the vessel then the outside circumference of the main part of the vessel would be exactly thirty cubits.

In each case the mathematical ratio for circumference of the circle is π d, where "d" is the diameter and π is the number 3.14159 .

Guess you havent really looked for a explanation

So, what you are saying is the Bible doesn’t contain complete and accurate information and you have to second-guess it to fill in the holes.

Or, is this one of those things that only special people that have the magic decoder ring can understand and correctly interpret?

[3fan4life]

So, what you are saying is the Bible doesn’t contain complete and accurate information and you have to second-guess it to fill in the holes.

Or, is this one of those things that only special people that have the magic decoder ring can understand and correctly interpret?

Maybe, because it's the Bible and not a math textbook.

I would say that when you are dealing with something that large, unless you're the contractor or the architect, rounding it off by 4" or so is OK. 

[3fan4life]

They dropped it because it was an unenforceable and obsolete law.  These “moral laws” were surreptitiously added to the code at a time when most people were illiterate and incapable of objecting to it.  Government elitism at it’s worst!  All of these antique laws that have been challenged in court have been repealed.

I agree that the laws against adultery are somewhat obsolete.

I stand by my statement 110% that the prosecution was using the felony charge of "adultery" as leverage to convince him to plead guilty to the misdemeaner charges in exchange for the felony charge being dropped. Only an idiot wouldn't have taken that deal. Had he not agreed then their hand would've been "called" and they would have had to prosecute him on the adultery charge.

I'm going to assume that he had a lawyer and was advised by his lawyer to take the deal. Now, I ask if the law against adultery is totally unenforcable as you suggest then,

Why would his lawyer advise him to take the deal instead of fighting it?   

Undestand something here, I am not saying that I agree with criminal prosecution for adultery, I don't.

But, the law is still "on the books" in many states and this recent case "proves" that prosecutors are willing to use it, even if only as leverage.

[Bobbo]

I agree that the laws against adultery are somewhat obsolete.

I stand by my statement 110% that the prosecution was using the felony charge of "adultery" as leverage to convince him to plead guilty to the misdemeaner charges in exchange for the felony charge being dropped. Only an idiot wouldn't have taken that deal. Had he not agreed then their hand would've been "called" and they would have had to prosecute him on the adultery charge.

I'm going to assume that he had a lawyer and was advised by his lawyer to take the deal. Now, I ask if the law against adultery is totally unenforcable as you suggest then,

Why would his lawyer advise him to take the deal instead of fighting it?  

Undestand something here, I am not saying that I agree with criminal prosecution for adultery, I don't.

But, the law is still "on the books" in many states and this recent case "proves" that prosecutors are willing to use it, even if only as leverage.

It is common for the prosecutor to “load up” the charges in an attempt to overwhelm and intimidate the defendant.  The defense lawyer knows that if they refuse the plea bargain, the prosecutor will simply retract the felony charge, and go with the misdemeanor, which they see as an easy victory.  Since this will prolong the trial and result in a loss for the defense attorney, he wants to get it over with quickly and recommends the deal.

[Robert]

  Pray about it

[Bobbo]

Maybe, because it's the Bible and not a math textbook.

I would say that when you are dealing with something that large, unless you're the contractor or the architect, rounding it off by 4" or so is OK. 

It may not be a math book, but the math it contains should be correct, or properly explained if it is touted as the absolute truth and word of God.  The math described in that verse wasn’t off by a few inches, but rather 1.4159 cubits, almost 25 and a half inches!  Even using a rope, you shouldn’t be off by that much.  If you round off to the nearest decimal, it would still be 31 cubits.

[3fan4life]

It is common for the prosecutor to “load up” the charges in an attempt to overwhelm and intimidate the defendant.  The defense lawyer knows that if they refuse the plea bargain, the prosecutor will simply retract the felony charge, and go with the misdemeanor, which they see as an easy victory.  Since this will prolong the trial and result in a loss for the defense attorney, he wants to get it over with quickly and recommends the deal.

Obviously you see this one way and I see it another. I ain't backin' down from my oppinion and you aren't backin' from yours, So how about we call this one a draw?

[3fan4life]

It may not be a math book, but the math it contains should be correct, or properly explained if it is touted as the absolute truth and word of God.  The math described in that verse wasn’t off by a few inches, but rather 1.4159 cubits, almost 25 and a half inches!  Even using a rope, you shouldn’t be off by that much.  If you round off to the nearest decimal, it would still be 31 cubits.

Maybe the darn cubit got lost in one of the many translations.  

Again it is a biblical text not a mathbook,

While I see what you are saying the fact is that the loss of a cubit isn't significant.

It doesn't really change anything about the message.

Here is the same text from a different translation that uses feet as the measurement:

23 He made the cast ⌊metal⌋ reservoir, 15 feet from brim to brim, perfectly round. It was 71/2 feet high and 45 feet in circumference. 24 ⌊Ornamental⌋ gourds encircled it below the brim, 10 every half yard, completely encircling the reservoir. The gourds were cast in two rows when the reservoir was cast. 25 It stood on 12 oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east. The reservoir was on top of them and all their hindquarters were toward the center. 26 The reservoir was three inches thick, and its rim was fashioned like the brim of a cup or of a lily blossom. It held 11,000 gallons.
1 Kings 7:23-26 (HCSB)

I have NO IDEA if the "math" actually adds up here or not.

I'll pretty much bet that it doesn't.

The translators know that unless you were going to reconstruct the object that is described, its exact measurements aren't relavent to the story.

The point that the author was trying to get across was that it was "REALLY BIG".

[SANDMAN5]

You might not want to continue your rant.  It will only strengthen my previous point.

I didn't think you'd have a serious answer. So I'll ask again...why do you think science isn't
out to prove anything?

[SANDMAN5]

I guess you haven’t actually read the Bible either.

What makes you say that? Do you have the Bible memorized? I don't. Don't know
anybody that does have it memorized....except Denzel Washington. (Book of Eli)
I think you're grasping at straws AGAIN because you just lost another argument.
Typical of the way you've acted here. Stir up trouble and then tuck your tail and
run when you get called out on something. You're not really worth the electricity
it takes to type a response, IMHO. Fortunately for you, there is One who thinks
otherwise. I pray that you'll find Him someday.

[Robert]

As usual Bobbo you are so hot just to prove the bible wrong you fail to see the bigger picture. I think we pretty much have a miracle here. First what you are quoting from do you have any idea what the dimensions are actually for? Like it would be relevant to some thing we do today or that you would ever need to do. A cubit was never a exact measurement it was from a mans finger tips to his elbow and of course differed with each man. So it was never a exact measurement. It was also different for Egyptians and Jews and all who actually measured. So for 2000 years with no explanation as to exactly what a cubit is and only to be off by you say 14 inches I say 9 thats a miracle. You have no idea the importance of the object you took the dimensions of nor its place in worship so you are not even sure if the dimensions are important or need to be exact. Or if God knows all there are also other choices and options that God has. You keep up a point less argument with no substance that serves no purpose just like the worlds view that think they found something of importance discounting all the other things that are so impossible yet come true. You base your view of the Bible on this one point that cannot be verified and on top of that is so close its a miracle. Its so mindless from somebody who loves science.

[SANDMAN5]

Guess you havent really looked for a explanation

No, he hasn't. Even after being shown one he still won't drop it. Wait
and see. To admit it is an explanation would mean he would have to
admit to being wrong to some extent. Not gonna happen!!

[fstsix]

The atheist and his atheism. Textbook word for word LOL!!
keywords: atheism, God, atheist, Jesus, agnostic, Christianity, religion, philosophy


    Atheism is defined by Webster's New World Dictionary as, "1. the belief that there is no God, or denial that God or gods exist. 2. godlessness". An atheist, therefore, is a person who believes that there is no God. But what does the Bible say?

    The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

    PSALMS XIV:I

    Atheism is a belief system that ardently denies the existence of God. God calls the atheist a FOOL. Many atheists spend much time and effort attempting to "disprove" that God exists. According to Romans chapter 1 they know that He exists, but they want to control their own lives and not submit to the Lord. They are actually rather tragic figures just like any other unsaved individual. It is hard to live out their atheism--if they did, they'd actually be considered crazy like O'Hair was.

    The atheist's RELIGION (which is simply a system of beliefs based on a philosophy) of atheism is simply a way to try to block out and override the truth--the ol' ostrich-head-in-the-sand technique:

        If you try to tell 'em the truth, they say "Shut up!"
        stick their heads in the ground and shout--
        "There's nobody there,
        there's nobody there,
        there's nobody there, I tell you!
        See, I can't see 'em!"

    Well, atheist reader, Somebody is there and His truth has stood from the beginning of time and will continue for all eternity. God is not dependent on you in any way. Blasphemies, wars, famines, and political appointments come and go, but when the dust settles, there's Jesus. And there is nothing you can do about it but breathe out hot air. You will humble yourself before the Lord Jesus or you will be ground to powder.

        And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
        --Jesus Christ
        Matthew 21:44

    Most atheists have what I call the Don Quixote Syndrome. Let me explain. Cervantes wrote a book about Don Quixote a long time ago. Don Quixote would attack windmills as if they were his enemies. Of course a windmill is nobody's enemy. If what the atheist believes is REALLY his belief, then he would leave people like me alone. After all, if God did not exist, He and His followers would be no enemy to the atheist. We'd just be deluded people. Therefore IF the atheist REALLY believes there is no God and the fool attacks a Christian, then he has the Don Quixote Syndrome because the Christian is not his enemy. Nevertheless, God is real and THAT is why atheists have all these organizations and debates to "prove" that God does not exist. Atheist reader, if you would just be true to what you purport to believe, then you wouldn't have the Don Quixote Syndrome.

    My old pastor once ministered to an old atheist who had been a card-carrying atheist for decades--but as he laid on his death bed, he wanted a pastor. I don't know if he got saved or not. When it's time to die, many atheists are understandably uneasy and those that aren't should be terrified.

    There is hope for the atheist. He can be saved. In fact, there are plenty of atheists that have come to Jesus Christ. I refuse to argue with them, but will answer honest questions. Unfortunately, many atheists ignorantly say hard things against the Lord Jesus Christ and His people. Don't let fancy titles and big words shake your faith in the One who holds your eternal destiny.

    Think about this: What does the atheist have to offer you? Eternal life? Spiritual comfort? Love? Kindness? Comfort in the midnight hour when no one is around? No, none of these. He has nothing to offer you but blasphemy, hell fire and the wrath of God. The atheist will tell you fabulous fairy tales like

        you were spontaneously generated from a rock,
        a monkey is your daddy,
        a fish is your cousin,
        you have no hope,
        you should just live for today,
        when you're dead, you're dead.

    If you follow their ignorant advice and die without Christ, you WILL forever regret it and you will remember that someone told you the truth and you scoffed.

    Atheists try their hardest to argue a fact that is firmly established--God is real. You cannot look on His creation and its ways and honestly deny it. I won't argue that 2+2=4 and I won't argue that God exists. An atheist once wrote and said, "2+2 is not necessarily 4". Well, write any other number on your math test and see if you get it right.

    The bottom line is that atheism is a false belief system composed of fools--it's not new--the Bible told us about atheism thousands of years ago. Is there a real atheist? No. The closest thing to it is someone who has told themselves a lie so many times that they begin to believe it's true.

[Bobbo]

I think you're grasping at straws AGAIN because you just lost another argument.
Typical of the way you've acted here. Stir up trouble and then tuck your tail and
run when you get called out on something. You're not really worth the electricity
it takes to type a response, IMHO. Fortunately for you, there is One who thinks
otherwise. I pray that you'll find Him someday.

You either have me confused with someone else, or are delusional. 

[Bobbo]

As usual Bobbo you are so hot just to prove the bible wrong you fail to see the bigger picture. I think we pretty much have a miracle here. First what you are quoting from do you have any idea what the dimensions are actually for? Like it would be relevant to some thing we do today or that you would ever need to do. A cubit was never a exact measurement it was from a mans finger tips to his elbow and of course differed with each man. So it was never a exact measurement. It was also different for Egyptians and Jews and all who actually measured. So for 2000 years with no explanation as to exactly what a cubit is and only to be off by you say 14 inches I say 9 thats a miracle. You have no idea the importance of the object you took the dimensions of nor its place in worship so you are not even sure if the dimensions are important or need to be exact. Or if God knows all there are also other choices and options that God has. You keep up a point less argument with no substance that serves no purpose just like the worlds view that think they found something of importance discounting all the other things that are so impossible yet come true. You base your view of the Bible on this one point that cannot be verified and on top of that is so close its a miracle. Its so mindless from somebody who loves science.

I am countering the argument that the Bible is the perfect, infallible, complete word of God.   It is convenient to say that something that doesn’t make sense is a miracle.  It is harder to fess up to the idea that the Bible is simply a storybook full of fables.

[Billy]

And if that doesn't work and they didn't convert, kill them just like Charlemagne (Holy Roman Emperor)did to the Saxons of northern Europe or Christianity's sister, Islam did and does to Infidels. Gotta love this ancient nomadic tribe that wandered all around the Sinai peninsula getting themselves enslaved by one great empire after another to eventual spawn two great evangelistic religions whose goal was to convert the world to their beliefs.
Much of the world's problems today are caused by  the Muslems, Christianists, and Hebrews  at each other's throat.

And the beat goes on...

[fstsix]

And the usual Atheist rant!...Goes on and on with No answers no hope..but to depend on his own mind, Not to offer anything good but to think Mans own invented mathematics is the perfect counter...But please all of "No" answers just keep typing your mindless non backed baseless Man made Theory. and the beat goes on and on...........

[Billy]

A rant is a speech or text that does not present a calm argument.

I am calm and I have no argument. Simply a little history lession.

Not once have I argued scripture in this tread, it's self defeating and believe it or not has been going on for quite some time.
Anyway this thread is way too redundant and emotions can flare so peace to all.

Over and out.

[big turkey]

What was the Question again/

I think I missed it.

Al

[Robert]

I thought that was where you were going. So with one point that you cant prove is wrong  you want me to agree the whole Bible is a fairy tale Now thats a stretch even for you Bobbo. Thats kinda like saying that science told us neanderthals were our ancestors and they were wrong so you might as well forget science and admit it is a farce. Lets get a little simpler science said drink a gallon of water a day now a person dies from drinking to much water and they revise the standards. So lets take all of science and throw that out too.

James men will find any excuse to achieve personal goals. I'm sure that Hitler in WW2 and slaughtering Jews was the religions of the world against each other or maybe WW1 or maybe lets see hummmm Vietnam nope, the only aggression I see by any religious group lately is the Muslims and its not against any religious sect only but anyone who is not a Muslim.

[fstsix]

Oh come on!!  I need some help on the History of Atheism ? LOL!! a little thin skinned when your Faith is questioned oh please explain..Don't run now this is just starting to get warmed up  this is just toooooo textbook 

[Bobbo]

I thought that was where you were going. So with one point that you cant prove is wrong  you want me to agree the whole Bible is a fairy tale Now thats a stretch even for you Bobbo. Thats kinda like saying that science told us neanderthals were our ancestors and they were wrong so you might as well forget science and admit it is a farce. Lets get a little simpler science said drink a gallon of water a day now a person dies from drinking to much water and they revise the standards. So lets take all of science and throw that out too.

My example is only one of a multitude of reasons I believe the Bible is a storybook written by a desperate small tribe hoping for some sort of salvation from their oppressors (the Roman Empire).  Like bashfulbob, you are demonstrating a lack of knowledge of science.  Unlike most religious beliefs which force evidence to fit the explanation, science forms explanations and theories from testable evidence.

Since you seem to think science is a farce, do you reject all medicine and depend solely on prayer to keep you healthy?  Science brought you both the Valkyrie and the computer you use.  Do you pray and God posts your message, or are you using a computer designed by those same fickle scientists?

[fstsix]

Your "Theory" Of the science of how we are here, as you say are based on "facts" That being said the Fact I Am Here typing NOW Created, will supersede your theory every time. 

[f6john]

I thought that was where you were going. So with one point that you cant prove is wrong  you want me to agree the whole Bible is a fairy tale Now thats a stretch even for you Bobbo. Thats kinda like saying that science told us neanderthals were our ancestors and they were wrong so you might as well forget science and admit it is a farce. Lets get a little simpler science said drink a gallon of water a day now a person dies from drinking to much water and they revise the standards. So lets take all of science and throw that out too.

My example is only one of a multitude of reasons I believe the Bible is a storybook written by a desperate small tribe hoping for some sort of salvation from their oppressors (the Roman Empire).  Like bashfulbob, you are demonstrating a lack of knowledge of science.  Unlike most religious beliefs which force evidence to fit the explanation, science forms explanations and theories from testable evidence.

Since you seem to think science is a farce, do you reject all medicine and depend solely on prayer to keep you healthy?  Science brought you both the Valkyrie and the computer you use.  Do you pray and God posts your message, or are you using a computer designed by those same fickle scientists?

     You have stated that you believe the Bible is a "storybook" written by a desperate small tribe. If that is true, I think you "protest too much", about a mere storybook. Why does it matter so much to you what others believe about a "storybook"? I personally would never engage in a debate over the Bible or "storybook" as you believe it is for it was never intended to be a object of debate. It's purpose is to serve as guide for anyone who will pick it up and read it with an open mind and an open heart. If you pick it up to use as a mere textbook or to even use it as a battering ram or a tool for argument you are wasting your time. If you are not searching for answers to lifes problems and thinking about more than just your immediate future your probably wasting your time. I am 58 years old and have been a believer for over 50 of those years and I will admit to everyone that I don't always get-it when I read the Bible. But I get-it more now and more often than I did 20 years ago. Biggest difference is 20 years ago I thought I had "all the answers". But sooner or later most people come to realize that what they don't know is far greater than what they do know.
     I am grateful for the subject and content of this thread because it has really opened my eyes to the idea and realization that I need to do more reading of my Bible for my own edification. I read this message board more than I do the Bible which should not be for me. Without quoting any Bible verses I wish to state my feelings as they relate to this thread. If I refer to God below I will be referring to the one and Only True God, not "my God" or "Christian God" but the creator of every race, every grain of sand, every drop of water.


      God does not need me to defend Him.
      God loves all His creations, every man, woman, child.
      Jesus is God made human flesh who walked among us, died for us, and most important rose from the dead.
      I will never be able to be good enough or righteous enough to enter Heaven on my own.
      The most important command I have received is the Great Commission.
      If I am unwilling to confess Jesus before men He will not confess me before God the Father.
      Everyone is given free will to accept or reject the free gift of grace for salvation
      Not everyone will accept.
      God holds the "keys' to heaven and hell.
      There is a hell.
      Jesus is the only one to ever be asked, Are you the Son of God?  Answer yes and be crucified.
      I know of no other believe system where the physical being made the claim to be God.
      The door is always open for a repentant child.
      The most compelling evidence of the existence and power of God is to witness the change in a person who has been a scoundrel or worse their whole life come to know Jesus in a personal way.
      I never want to substitute higher learning and my intellect for Gods guidance.

      With all that said, I don't hold myself to be higher, better, smarter, more well read, than anyone else
      but I am covered by the blood spilled by Jesus for the redemption of my sins past present and future
      which cost to me is my acceptance of his sacrifice and acknowledgement of him as my Lord and
      and Savior. 

[Robert]

f6john very well put 

Bobbo I do like science just drawing a comparison, I'm really sorry I have nothing else to offer you. I also hope others will feel the same.

[Robert]

2Ti 2:23  But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
2Ti 2:24  The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
2Ti 2:25  with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26  and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.


Mat 12:35  "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.
Mat 12:36  "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37  "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."


Php 4:4  Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice!
Php 4:5  Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near.
Php 4:6  Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
Php 4:7  And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Php 4:8  Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.

AS I read these scriptures again I thought I would let all those in Christ read them. I am always amazed that the Bible addresses every situation and encourages and guides now as it did 2000 years ago. Blessings to you my brothers as you ride and look around enjoying all the Lord has made ask Him to speak to you. Spend the time talking to Him and thanking Him for what you have its called praise. He will slowly speak to you just listen with your heart and dont doubt.  You can share anytime with the Lord.. HE is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.

[SANDMAN5]

Like bashfulbob, you are demonstrating a lack of knowledge of science.  Unlike most religious beliefs which force evidence to fit the explanation, science forms explanations and theories from testable evidence.

Actually I have a pretty decent knowledge of science. It's just that I choose to believe God
over man. But I'm a little confused about something. If science forms "explanations" that means
they are proving something to be true or untrue....right?  That brings this post to mind....

That statement can only be made by someone who has no understanding of the scientific principal.  Science does not seek to prove anything.

 Hard to stand on shifting sand,eh bobbo? Go ahead and try to lie your way out of this, we'll wait.
Meanwhile, God's Word never changes. It is the same yesterday, today and forever.

[Bobbo]

Like bashfulbob, you are demonstrating a lack of knowledge of science.  Unlike most religious beliefs which force evidence to fit the explanation, science forms explanations and theories from testable evidence.

Actually I have a pretty decent knowledge of science. It's just that I choose to believe God
over man. But I'm a little confused about something. If science forms "explanations" that means
they are proving something to be true or untrue....right?  That brings this post to mind....

That statement can only be made by someone who has no understanding of the scientific principal.  Science does not seek to prove anything.

 Hard to stand on shifting sand,eh bobbo? Go ahead and try to lie your way out of this, we'll wait.
Meanwhile, God's Word never changes. It is the same yesterday, today and forever.

You are digging yourself deeper with every post...   

[Jabba]

God's Word never changes. It is the same yesterday, today and forever.

When I was a kid... Catholics believed babies went to "Limbo" when they died, only men could be priests and only boys could be altar boys.  That has all changed.

Way back, people fasted during Lent.  Then they couldn't eat meat on FRIDAYS during Lent.  Now, fish and chicken are OK.

I know... this isn't God's word changing, but Religion's interpretation of it...  Blah blah.

Someone said the bible interprets itself.

Jabba

[SANDMAN5]

You are digging yourself deeper with every post...   

LOLOLOLOL...Ok, I wasn't gonna..wait, one more...LOL..I hadn't planned
on responding any more to this thread (I'm sure the staff is getting tired
of looking at it) but it's just too good to pass up. YOU got caught contradicting
YOURSELF and you are not man enough to 'fess up!! LOLOL Go ahead, ignore it!!
Save this thread on your computer and IF you ever become a man you can come
back here and apologize to the members. Just out of the goodness of my heart I'll
give you another chance to TRY and tell us what you believe. First you said science
doesn't try to prove anything...then you said it explains things by testing evidence.
So, which one do you believe......today, I mean. I'm sure it'll be different tomorrow. 

[Billy]

Oops, now got somebody's manhood  being called up to question. This thread is finally getting serious. Just remember, God made testosterone.

[3fan4life]

I am countering the argument that the Bible is the perfect, infallible, complete word of God.   It is convenient to say that something that doesn’t make sense is a miracle.  It is harder to fess up to the idea that the Bible is simply a storybook full of fables.

I spend a lot of time watching the learning channels (TLC, SCIENCE, HISTORY, etc.) and one thing that I have learned is that very little about science is “exact”.

Many times multiple theories are presented as to how or why something occurred.
For example, scientist are still unable to fully explain gravity:

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/070810_gm_gravity.html



And scientists have been studying gravity since Sir Isaac Newton in 1665.

Some People want to insist that science and religion cannot co-exist, I’ve never agreed with that and it seems that Sir Isaac Newton didn’t either:   

“The system of revealed truth which this Book contains is like that of the universe, concealed from common observation yet...the centuries have established its Divine origin.” - Sir Isaac Newton

“This most beautiful system [The Universe] could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.” – Sir Isaac Newton

“And from true lordship it follows that the true God is living, intelligent, and powerful; from the other perfections, that he is supreme, or supremely perfect. He is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, he endures from eternity to eternity; and he is present from infinity to infinity; he rules all things, and he knows all things that happen or can happen.” — Sir Isaac Newton

So, just because science can’t fully explain something from the Bible or science doesn’t agree with something from the Bible. Doesn’t necessarily mean that the Bible is wrong.

In fact sometimes the more we learn about something scientifically the more it agrees with the biblical account.

[Billy]

People viewing science as an end all in it's self are NOT seeing science for what it is, it's constant testing and study. Knowledge builds on itself, and hopefully it will always be a never ending endeavor and research.. Religion is constant or tries to be. In it's own way, religion is always evolving. From the faithful  in  the earliest days and the smorgass board we have today caused by  splits and schisms over the centuries.

[fstsix]

Good your back James...man of your word of coarse..here is a little science for ya..Smile Jesus loves you!! Do you have hope in your life? How important is hope? Did you know that most marriages that fail are because a lack of hope, they have lost all hope of their problems being resolved so they file for divorce. It is also a major reason for suicide, people lose all hope in life so they will just end it. Scientists were doing some studies on the Norwegian wharf rats. They took the rats and placed them in a tub of water and continued to spray the tubs so that the rats could not roll over a float. The rats ended up dying after just seventeen minutes of swimming. The scientists again took another set of rats and repeated the experiment only this time after sixteen minutes as the rats were about to die they removed them and dried them off, placed them in there cage and fed them. They let the rats recover for a few days and allow them to live a normal life again. Then after some time had passed the rats are put back in the tubs of water only this time the rats swam for more that thirty seven hours before they died. The scientist concluded that the reason for this is that they had a salvation experience and they were hoping for a repeat salvation. The rats were able to swim thirty seven hours instead of seventeen minutes because they had hope. The hope of salvation. It is interesting how we as Christians have hope in Jesus Christ, and this hope gives us peace that surpasses all understanding. The question is why are so many of us afraid to give this hope to others. There are so many out there that need the hope that Jesus offers and yet no one is going out and sharing it. Hope is a belief in a positive outcome related to events and circumstances in one's life. Hope implies a certain amount of despair, wanting, wishing, suffering or perseverance -i.e., believing that a better or positive outcome is possible even when there is some evidence to the contrary. The word hope appears 142 times in the Bible, Jesus gives us a true hope in that one day we will spend eternity with Him.

Colossians 1:27 says "To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Romans 5:1-5 says "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

Titus 1:2 says "in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,"

Romans 15:4 say "For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope."

We have a spiritual hope that gives us a confident expectation in things beyond this world. Our salvation goes beyond the boundaries of this world and into a eternal kingdom and it is in that hope that I rest and take comfort in. How many of us feel like the first set of rats that are quickly approaching the seventeen minute mark and wondering how we will ever get out of this watery tub we call life. Allow Jesus to become your hope, let Him remove you from the tub and dry you off and feed you so that when you face life's difficulties you can place that hope in Him because He never fails. Jesus will never leave nor forsake you. Life is to short to live without hope and eternity is to long to live without Christ. Place your hope in Him.