A religious question for Robert.

[Jabba]

Robert... what is your explanation as to why there is no peace with Palestinians?  As to why the world hates Jeruselum?  Why there is intolerable strife and human suffering?  Disasters, famine, sickness etc?

I am just wondering.

Part of why I question all religion. I can't reconcile an omnipotent, loving God that allows the level of misery in the world that is present.

Not trying to call you out or anything.  I really am curious as to how you reconcile it.

Jabba

[grizs50]

Sorry I am not Robert But,

God allows suffering to bring about His will, His own and ours. It's is not something we can apply human reasoning too. We must accept the Gift from God of Faith to understand this.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


Either God is who He says He is or He's not. I believe He is, and what is the harm if He is not? I am then only worm food and none the worse off. 

We have free will, that is to say we are free resist God's calling. It's ok if you do, but at some point the time will come when we all stand in front of God, the bible says is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God!

Hebrews 10:31 (New International Version)

31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Because of His total righteousness he has no recourse but to destroy us as sinful beings, He however sent His Son to become sin for us so we can stand before God with out fear. This is the Great Exchange Jesus traded our Unrighteousness for His righteousness, This is how God allowed His suffering to bring about His will.

God Allowed His Son to make this Exchange, and Allowed His Son to take on all the suffering and sin we sinful men have caused. This suffering was with in God's will and it brought about His will.

We, sinful man cause all the wars and suffering, and other strife, it's because we are sinful from the get go, there is nothing good within man. Sin has driven out any good thing God created in us.

John 3:16-18 (New International Version)

 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

As I said earlier, I believe God is who He says He is, If I am wrong I am No worse off! Remember Eternity is a VERY long time to be wrong. Here I stand, I can do No other.

[Robert]

Jabba in brief about the Palestinians

Gen 16:11  The angel of the LORD said to her further, "Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.
Gen 16:12  "He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone's hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers."
Gen 16:13  Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"
Gen 16:14  Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.
Gen 16:15  So Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram called the name of his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael.
Gen 16:16  Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to him.

 Ishmael with his troops of wild retainers and half-savage allies, in all the state of a Bedouin prince, gathered before the cave of Machpelah, in the midst of the men of Heth, to pay the last duties to the 'father of the faithful,' would make a notable subject for an artist” (Gen_25:9). Of the after events of his life but little is known. He died at the age of one hundred and thirty-seven years, but where and when are unknown (Gen_25:17). He had twelve sons, who became the founders of so many Arab tribes or colonies, the Ishmaelites, who spread over the wide desert spaces of Northern Arabia from the Red Sea to the Euphrates (Gen_37:25, Gen_37:27, Gen_37:28; Gen_39:1), “their hand against every man, and every man's hand against them.”
 
Jabba start to look at the start of Jerusalem and Israel and you will see so many miracles from the history books not only from the Bible that you wont believe it. No one ever thought that the Israelites would ever have their own land including themselves and if you look at the Bible and what the Lord said would happen thousands of years before it happened you look and say coincidence or divine providence. One example among many more that I will list a couple more later.
 Muslims believe in the Bible enough to build the Dome of the Rock on the very spot that the Temple will be built.
  God wants our hearts our love and dedication to Him life is what He gives and its a gift. He gives us choices in all situations to live by what He says or what we say. Most of the time we choose to live by our own wits instead of listening to what God would tell us. But we pay the price of wrong decisions and not hearing what He says about a situation. He gives us the Holy Spirit which He calls the comforter to help us in all situations and to reveal to us what He says. I love one line in the Bible I set before you life and death then He tells us choose life. He gives us a multiple choice and then tells us how to answer. How stupid are we that we need to be told. If anyone ever tells you you have to, its religion. But ask Him to talk to you and explain things and He will. If you tell Him to go away He will He is a gentleman. Its only in man and religion that the burden is placed on mans neck to serve. That some are told your not good enough or that unless you do this or that your condemned its all man not the Lord. 

One other quick thing Esau fought against Israel and God put a curse on that tribe saying there will never be peace amongst yourselves. Well this is modern Sunni Tribes and Shiites even Mohamed tried to get all these tribes together under the Muslim banner and He did. But they would still kill each other, if religion is the thing that unites then why are not all these Muslims united and not kill each other? They are all Muslims and yet the violence that went on under Mohammed's day is still the same as it is today.

[Jabba]

What I get out of this is ALL bible bible bible. 

The bible is a book.  Can you offer anything other than scripture?

Jabba

[Robert]

What are you looking for? I offered Israel as a modern way to confirm scripture is true because it was for told in the Bible and happened and is able to be confirmed in modern times with current info. It wont take long to confirm this. Do you want to hear of the lives changed by prayer?

[hubcapsc]

What I get out of this is ALL bible bible bible. 

The bible is a book.  Can you offer anything other than scripture?

Jabba

Hi Jabba...

It has been said that "God's wisdom plus Man's wisdom isn't God's wisdom plus something, it's God's wisdom minus something..."

There's nothing to offer other than the Bible...

-Mike

[SANDMAN5]

It all goes back to the "free will" thing. We each make our own decisions
and suffer the consequences or reap the benefits. Never is it mentioned
in the Bible that the world will be %100 peaceful and everybody will get
along.....at least not yet. But that day is coming!!!! (There are variations
in what people believe about that) Yes, the Bible is a book, yours to believe
or not. The Jews have been hated throughout history because they are
God's chosen people. Call it jealousy, for lack of a better term. Sickness
and suffering we pretty much brought on ourselves. How can somebody
smoke cigarrettes for 30 years and then blame God when they get lung
cancer? Earthquakes, volcanoes, drought etc are not God's punishment
on people, they are part of nature. New Orleans wasn't almost wiped out
because of God's wrath, it was because they built a city next to the ocean.
This type of stuff is much easier to discuss in person than on a screen, at least
for me. If you'd like, I'll send you a link to a series my Pastor did titled "Why the Devil
Hates Your Guts."

[Sludge]

What I get out of this is ALL bible bible bible. 

The bible is a book.  Can you offer anything other than scripture?

Jabba

Not saying this to be a prick or anything... but if you ask a religious question, why are you surprised when answers will invariably refer to the scripture?

Bible aside... My take is that God gave mankind free choice.  We have choices of doing evil or good. We CHOOSE to place ourselves as parts of different groups, be it of a religious, political, racial or your favorite ball club.

 Human nature at its most basic sets us up for conflict when your "group" comes into conflict with or competition with another "group".

So far as the Palestinians and Israelis, ya gotta remember that this is kinda a shadow war against Israel by neighbors and other states like Iran.  If you look back at the history of the past 50 years, those neighbors tried, on a few occasions, to destroy Israel.  First in 1948 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War. Then again in 1967 they tried and lost miserably in the 6 Day War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War and in 1973 Yom Kippur War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War.  Israel kicked their collective asses during these conflicts the arabs lost land and really bruised their pride. 

They are still smarting from it and acting out against Israel through the Palestinians.

[Jabba]

I'll ask a couple specific questions then...

"How are the Jews "Gods chosen people", when they missed the train 200 years ago with Jesus?

Are the Jews going to heaven?  After all, they are Gods chosen people.

If there is no way to heaven other than thru Jesus, what happens to the Jews?

What happens to the soul of a child that dies?

Jabba

[Hef]

Jabba, I usually don't don't get involved in discussions regarding politics or religion, but I do have a comment about your question. I believe you are a sincere man and I respect you and your right to ask. I too once believed that the Bible was just a book written by man. But then one day I truly saw an act of God and it completely changed my life and my beliefs. My introduction to God and His Grace came by way of a miracle in my life and now as a believer who has accepted Jesus Christ as my Saviour, the Bible has become my guide, along with the Spirit of God. We who believe in God believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I realize that many believe like you that the Bible is just a book and are looking for more. But, unless you come to know the Lord, the Bible will always be just a book. I know that many have the same questions as you. Why does God allow terrible disasters to happen, children to have cancer, our loved ones dying at early ages and the list goes on and on. All I can tell you is that this earth is not a perfect place and it is not our permanent residence. I also know that one of biggest detriments to christianity are the hyprocrits. When you speak about God or church, many non-believers will quickly point out how many people they know who claim to be christians who lie, cheat, steal, etc. This may be true but I always point out that it doesn't change the fact that God is real and you can have a real relationship with Him if you desire.

[elraque]

I'll ask a couple specific questions then...

"How are the Jews "Gods chosen people", when they missed the train 200 years ago with Jesus?

Are the Jews going to heaven?  After all, they are Gods chosen people.

If there is no way to heaven other than thru Jesus, what happens to the Jews?

What happens to the soul of a child that dies?

Jabba

Jabba, I have found answers to all those questions. The answers are too long to post here, in "forum" format. I'll have to write them up (I'll try to be both brief and complete). If you'd like I'll do so and e-mail them to you. Then we can talk about them. The answers will have a strong scriptural component, but they are the only answers I have found that actually make sense as responses to your questions.

So let me know if you would like to read my "opinions".(God's plan really is perfect, and accommodates ALL the contingencies and ALL his children -- without compromising their freedom to choose. We all get to choose our actions, but not the consequences of those actions. There are, in fact, eternal laws of cause and effect...)

[Robert]

Ill let the Bible answer your questions

Rom 11:1  I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2  God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:3  "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
Rom 11:4  But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5  In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
Rom 11:6  But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 11:7  What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Rom 11:8  just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
Rom 11:9  And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
Rom 11:10  "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."
Rom 11:11  I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Rom 11:12  Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Rom 11:13  But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14  if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
Rom 11:15  For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16  If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Rom 11:17  But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18  do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19  You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20  Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21  for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22  Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23  And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24  For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25  For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26  and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27  "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

Act 2:22  "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--
Act 2:23  this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
Act 2:24  "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
Act 2:25  "For David says of Him, 'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
Act 2:26  'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
Act 2:27  BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
Act 2:28  'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
Act 2:29  "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Act 2:30  "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
Act 2:31  he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
Act 2:32  "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
Act 2:33  "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
Act 2:34  "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
Act 2:35  UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."

Children until they reach awareness of the Lord and can make a decision on their own they will go back to where they came from the Lord

[alph]

What I get out of this is ALL bible bible bible. 

The bible is a book.  Can you offer anything other than scripture?

Jabba

gee Jabba!  just what you wanted!!  more bible verses!!

[3fan4life]

I'll ask a couple specific questions then...

"How are the Jews "Gods chosen people", when they missed the train 200 years ago with Jesus?

Are the Jews going to heaven?  After all, they are Gods chosen people.

If there is no way to heaven other than thru Jesus, what happens to the Jews?

What happens to the soul of a child that dies?

Jabba

The only way to explain Jesus and what a Christian believes is through the scripture found in the Christian bible. If you don’t believe in the truthfulness of the scriptures then it will only be “foolishness” to you.
1 Corinthians 1:18 (New King James Version)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

To put it in a slightly different way:
It is impossible to explain the answers to questions about a religion if the person that’s asking the question doesn’t believe in the truthfulness of the religion that he’s asking about.

With this in mind I will attempt to answer your questions:    

Q: How are the Jews "God’s chosen people", when they missed the train 200 years ago with Jesus?

A: God never goes back on his word.

He promised Abraham that he would be the father of many nations:

Genesis 17:5 (New King James Version)
No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.


And his word states that God chose the Jewish people:

Deuteronomy 7:6 (New King James Version)
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.


Q: Are the Jews going to heaven?  After all, they are Gods chosen people.

If there is no way to heaven other than thru Jesus, what happens to the Jews?

A: These are basically the same question so I will answer them as one.

Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will go to heaven:

John 3:16 (New King James Version)
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

This Salvation was sent to the Jews first (remember Jesus was a Jew):

Romans 1:16 (New King James Version)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.


So the Salvation of Jesus Christ is open to anyone that is willing to accept it. But what about the people (Jews included) that refuse to accept Jesus:

 Romans 9:15 (New King James Version)
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.

My interpretation of this is that if God wants to allow someone into Heaven then he will. (Some theologians would probably disagree with me).    

Q: What happens to the soul of a child that dies?

A: This is a question that many people have asked.

I believe that because a child is innocent that if they die young their soul will return to heaven. Jesus had a special love for small children and I don’t believe that their souls would face eternal damnation because they hadn’t yet heard the gospel.

Matthew 19:14 (New King James Version)
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

I don’t mean to sound “flippant” but, either these answers make sense to you or they don’t. There is no way to answer questions about God from a Christian perspective without the answer being based on the word of God.
Many “religious” people trainwreck when they attempt to do otherwise.  

[RoadKill]

Jabba.....I thought I was the "NUT JOB" around here and then you open THIS can of worms?
I hand over my trophies to the true crazy one!          

But seriously I will add my input for you,............

In almost any religion there is a "God". That "God" is not a ruler but a GUIDE . No matter what religion one follows there is a greater power to believe in.It is all based on "belief" "faith"    "acceptance, allegiance, assent, assurance, belief, certainty, certitude, confidence, constancy, conviction, credence, credit, credulity, dependence, faithfulness, fealty, fidelity, hope, loyalty, reliance, stock, store, sureness, surety, troth, truth, truthfulness ".
 If you want to replace the word "God" with "Guide" I think it will help you see that if one believes in no suffering and world peace, then that is the path "God" wants you to follow and work towards...A GUIDE based on your beliefs! If your god is an evil god guiding you towards poverty and despair and you call him FRED,could he possibly be known by other names in different beliefs? Example: "Beelzebub, Lucifer, Mephistopheles, Prince of Darkness, Satan, adversary, archfiend, beast, brute, bête noire, common enemy, dastard, diablo, djinn, dybbuk, enfant terrible, evil one, fiend, genie, hellion, imp, knave, monster, ogre, rogue, scamp, scoundrel, the Erinyes, the Furies, the dickens, villain "

"GOD" ..    absolute being; divine nature,celestial, deity, genius, god, godliness, godship, guardian spirit, higher power, holiness, lord, prime mover, sanctity, spirit

If you feel that "intolerable strife and human suffering" is wrong...please explain why, and what ever name you associate with that feeling... it is your "God".  If you feel it in your heart..that is god,if your brain says it is wrong...your brain is god.
Doesn't matter what you call your guide, "assume, be convinced, be of the opinion, conclude, conjecture, consider, credit, deduce, deem, esteem, gather, guess, have a hunch, have the impression, hold, infer, intuit, judge, know, presume, repute, sense, suppose, surmise, suspect, think "  it's just how you describe your "god".

I believe it is in your heart and that is where you 'FIND' "God".
            IMHO FWIW

[Jack]

I try to stay out of this but I don't see why a true God would need to sacrifice his son to bring something about or why he would be concerned if someone worshiped him or not.  It all just seems very archaic to me. As for life everlasting, seems like it would get boring after a few thousand years.  
I think religion is great for children and to control the masses but I think adults should stop believing in fairy tales they were told as a child.

[shortleg]

  I belive God gave us Free will and the power of thought.
My father used to say the first thing man did after he got
the power of thought was crap in his pants. Thinking it
was a fart.
                              Shortleg[Dave]           

[Robert]

Alph your a pisser and just gave me a good laugh There would be no difference if I wrote them personally just as 3 fan basically did. God does not forget His loved ones. He constantly made the way for the Jews when they were never faithful to Him. Time and time again He forgave their many indiscretions doesn't sound like the God of vengeance does He? The Bible says how many times do I forgive my brother if he sins against me 7 times and Jesus said no but 7 times 77. HOOO that sounds so tough doesn't it the big bad God is just out to swat us Sorry I'm tired 4 hours sleep last night. When you pray for someone and they get healed when you have words of encouragement for someone and they are encouraged when you go through something and feel His presence and know He made the way it tends to encourage you. I have had people healed the minute I prayed for them. That has nothing to do with religion, flame on.
  My wife when she came to the Lord was healed immediately of smoking and never had even a desire to smoke again.
  We had a guest speaker and were having a good time and a lady in the back row had a heart attack and was down for the count. She started to turn blue and the guest speaker went back prayed for her and she got up and when the paramedics came they couldn't find a thing wrong with her. Even when they took her to the hospital. So many more stories but yea thats religion 
  I led a guy to the Lord and well say James got touched big time when I prayed for him. So a member in his family got into a car wreck so bad that the paramedics and doctors said he didn't have a chance and he was in a coma. James went to his hospital room and while he was in a coma prayed for him. In a couple of weeks when he came out of the coma and he and James were shooting the breeze he said I knew you were there with me. No one else just James. Although he had many visitors. James one day just came to the spot where we had prayed together and he accepted the Lord and just sat there and enjoyed that special spot out side a auto repair shop.
  just desire to find out who He really is ask thats all ask and you will find out if Hes real. We really dont need to discuss anything more than that.
  The guy next door was compressing a spring and he had it out and the spring was on floor and he was over it with his chest on top of it and it let loose. I heard the commotion and went over and saw what had happened. He was laying on the floor clutching his chest waiting for the paramedics. I kneeled down and prayed for him and the pain and fear left and he was able to get up and wait to see if there was anything wrong. Diagnosis bruised ribs and nothing else.
   A friend of mine was at a Dunkin Donuts and she was getting a coffee and the girls starts to tell her her life's story and my friend and I start to pray for her , I was on the phone not prive to their conversation and after we get done praying my friend asks do I have a word for her. I said yes and told her about her situation with another guy which she never made mention of while I was at work.
  I know some of you have some stories out there too it and know what I am talking about. This is relationship and so far removed from religion that of course some wont understand it. But others that know will say I want that for myself.
 Many financial miracles and sometimes He gives me something I may have wanted. He is so good I have no problem being grateful and wanting to get closer.
 

[Robert]

Benny Hinn - Medical Documented Healing	powered by Aeva

Kathryn Kuhlman	powered by Aeva

Kathryn Kuhlman ''It's Not Me, He Is The One'' (Traducido al Español)	powered by Aeva

[hubcapsc]

I believe Benny Hinn is a false prophet... a $cammer... a hypocrite... a real trickster...

-Mike

[alph]

I believe Benny Hinn is a false prophet... a $cammer... a hypocrite... a real trickster...

-Mike

   
my all time favorite is robert tilton (i wonder if there's a connection?)  i love the way he squints his eyes, and does his "babble" that SO many people call "speaking in tongues......  then there was that date line investigation that found a dumpster behind his studio filled with "prayer requests" still folded in the envelopes, but the checks were gone!! 

[Chattanooga Mark]

Excellent response 3fan4life.

All the best,

Mark

[Jabba]

OK... so if an "innocent child" dies... he goes to heaven... wouldn't the best thing we could do for them is kill them before the age of accountability?  I mean, what's 80 years on this miserable ball of dirt compared to ETERNITY in heaven? 

Disclaimer... I don't seriously BELIEVE that... but it's a theological question that has plagued me for decades that I have never gotten a solid answer to.

To anyone that I have offended in this thread (and it was a spin off of another one) I apologize.  I really do think about this stuff a lot, and I find that generally speaking, persons on this forum are more intelligent than the average American.  When we keep the dialogue civil, I think there is much that can be learned.

I can't read Bible verse.  3Fan, I very much appreciate the translation.  I think what I got from that is... "You have to accept Jesus as your savior, unless you're a Jew, and then you get a pass."  My next question is...

"Do you have to be a genetic Jew or is a Jewish convert grandfathered in too?"

One last question, well maybe not.

"Am I doomed to hell if I never accept Jesus as my savior?"  I think I live a lot more "Christian" life than most people I know.  I work hard.  Try to do good.  Give charity.  Try very hard to never screw anyone over.  Help people out as much as I can.  Don't steal, lie or cheat.  Is it REALLY irrelevant how good I am when I am alive?  God will REALLY choose a murderous, rapist, child molester over me, IF he accepts Jesus as his savior on hid deathbed?
 

Jabba

[doubletee]

OK... so if an "innocent child" dies... he goes to heaven... wouldn't the best thing we could do for them is kill them before the age of accountability?  I mean, what's 80 years on this miserable ball of dirt compared to ETERNITY in heaven? 

Disclaimer... I don't seriously BELIEVE that... but it's a theological question that has plagued me for decades that I have never gotten a solid answer to.

To anyone that I have offended in this thread (and it was a spin off of another one) I apologize.  I really do think about this stuff a lot, and I find that generally speaking, persons on this forum are more intelligent than the average American.  When we keep the dialogue civil, I think there is much that can be learned.

I can't read Bible verse.  3Fan, I very much appreciate the translation.  I think what I got from that is... "You have to accept Jesus as your savior, unless you're a Jew, and then you get a pass."  My next question is...

"Do you have to be a genetic Jew or is a Jewish convert grandfathered in too?"

One last question, well maybe not.

"Am I doomed to hell if I never accept Jesus as my savior?"  I think I live a lot more "Christian" life than most people I know.  I work hard.  Try to do good.  Give charity.  Try very hard to never screw anyone over.  Help people out as much as I can.  Don't steal, lie or cheat.  Is it REALLY irrelevant how good I am when I am alive?  God will REALLY choose a murderous, rapist, child molester over me, IF he accepts Jesus as his savior on hid deathbed?
 

Jabba

huh.  And here I thought I was the only one who thought like that. Thanks for putting a lot of my exact thoughts and feelings into words.

[alph]

jabba,

you are a good person.  stop worrying whether you're going to heaven or are doomed to hell.  i was a christian a long time ago, i was a catholic before that.  i've since left the churches because i found that the true meaning to eternal salvation is one simple teaching that was taught, and that is Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.  The second is this Love your neighbor as yourself.

now, most church goers don't practice what they preach, so the teaching is meaningless.  

lets break it down, the first part is impossible.  that is, unless you live in a place were everyone practices that belief.  SO, you're forgiven for not being able to perform the impossible.  (case in point, did jesus let peter drown when he couldn't walk on water?  no of course not. so why would he let you die because you can't love him 100%)

now the second part, love your neighbor.  i use to do that, and in fact it is the best way to be "christ like".  think of it, if christians loved muslims the way they're suppose to, they'd be ALL OVER iran and iraq.  but, they really don't so they send bombs instead.  

Think of it, when was the last time you did anything for a stranger?  That’s what matters.  When you’re at the mall, take the cart from the old man that just put all his stuff in his trunk so he doesn’t have to put it away, mow your neighbors yard when they’re on vacation, shovel their driveway when there’s a foot of snow on it, STOP AND HELP OUT THAT FAMILY STUCK UNDER THE BRIDGE IF THEY HAVE A FLAT TIRE!! (long story, let me know if you want to hear about it…..),

Jabba, I can tell you’re a big hearted person.  I know that you sincerely care about others.  Someone will through out the “your righteousness is like filthy rags” bible verse, or the “without faith your works are dead”…..  I look at it like this, you’ve got to live with yourself.  Only god will judge you, don’t let the church do it for you.  
And if killing your kids sets them up for eternal salvation, then I should kill my kids now ‘cause they’re going to hell if I don’t!!  (that’s just stupid thinking.)

[SANDMAN5]

"Am I doomed to hell if I never accept Jesus as my savior?"  I think I live a lot more "Christian" life than most people I know.  I work hard.  Try to do good.  Give charity.  Try very hard to never screw anyone over.  Help people out as much as I can.  Don't steal, lie or cheat.  Is it REALLY irrelevant how good I am when I am alive?  God will REALLY choose a murderous, rapist, child molester over me, IF he accepts Jesus as his savior on hid deathbed?

Right. The one unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, being the one that leads you
to accept Jesus. God is no respecter of persons. Took me a while to get the concept of that!
What it means, boiled down, you CANNOT be good enough on your own to get into Heaven. That's
why Jesus had to come to earth as a man, to live a perfect life and be a perfect sacrifice. Jesus
said "I came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." I'm sure somebody else can elaborate further.
I'm going to bed (working 12 hr nights) I'll check again when (if) I wake up!!

[x]

Ill let the Bible answer your questions

Rom 11:1  I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2  God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:3  "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
Rom 11:4  But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5  In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
Rom 11:6  But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 11:7  What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Rom 11:8  just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
Rom 11:9  And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
Rom 11:10  "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."
Rom 11:11  I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Rom 11:12  Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
Rom 11:13  But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14  if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
Rom 11:15  For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16  If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Rom 11:17  But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18  do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19  You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20  Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21  for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22  Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23  And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24  For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25  For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26  and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27  "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

Act 2:22  "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--
Act 2:23  this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
Act 2:24  "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
Act 2:25  "For David says of Him, 'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
Act 2:26  'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
Act 2:27  BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
Act 2:28  'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
Act 2:29  "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Act 2:30  "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
Act 2:31  he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
Act 2:32  "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
Act 2:33  "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
Act 2:34  "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
Act 2:35  UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."

Children until they reach awareness of the Lord and can make a decision on their own they will go back to where they came from the Lord

Blah, blah, woof, woof.  Anyone can quote the bible.  Quotes are nonsensical without context... and you are seriously missing context.

[Robert]

Yup a murderous rapest mother killing nazi if on his dying bed accepts Jesus as his Lord and savior will get in before you if you dont accept His invitation. Let me explain the thing that really is the hinge pin of the whole thing. There is NO forgiveness of sins unless there is blood spilled the way the Old Testiment sacrifice did it. The source of life is in the blood and unless there is a blood sacrifice there is no forgiveness of sin. In the Old Testament this was accomplished goats, lambs and cattle. The high Priest would offer a sacrifice for you at the temple. Thats why they had on the outside of the Temple the gold Lavier so the Priests could wash their hands of the blood. Man being corrupt started to bring lame and blemished animals and also since no one wanted to be seen with a animal walking down the street,{did you see Mel brought a goat oh he must have done something real bad} you know neighbors always talk they started to pay the Temple Priests for animals. Hence the Temple started to become a real den of thieves. Well anyway Jesus spilled His blood for us this is the sacrifice that allows us to enter the Holy of holies  spotless. The blood of bull and goats could never really cleanse thats why every year there had to be sacrifices but Jesus is once for all and His blood still flows today washing clean the most avid sinner. No one works hard enough to achieve heaven or the forgiveness of sins. It is a free gift from God one of many. This is so no man could boast. I want you to know God is the source of all life. He set rules for the Jews and all men and told them what was going to happen and made the change in how all were to be saved. This was because man couldn't keep the rules in the garden much less all the rules set up in the Torah. Being a good person is great but will not make it into heaven. If this was the case then you really dont need God and as Oprah says we are all gods. All who die good and bad rich and poor Muslim,Buddah anyone will appear before God. He dosent have to accuse you you will do that yourself, your own words will do the trick when they are recounted in heaven. Yes scientists are finding out that all your memories and everything you said is stored up in that little nogging of yours. Well God has the button for playback and there will be times when you cringe at what you have said. Thats why the Bible says let your words be few. Like I said in the previous threads God is for us and not looking to hammer us but help us to get to heaven. He shows the way and you are the one that either accepts or rejects what He says is the way to go. But the gift of eternal life and His help on earth comes because He made the way, allowed His son to be killed and His blood spilled so that all me you could have that gift. All that takes is saying God I want to be forgiven and want to accept the gift of life you have given us in your Son come and live with me. I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. If you are not up to that point just ask to know for sure who He is and who Jesus is. Be open and alert to Him changing things for you and you will begin to notice things are a bit different. You can think all you want man has done that for centuries but take the plunge and really find out if He is real or just another religion. If you think that you have done bad things or are hiding something He already knows and says come we will straighten it all out together. I never meant for you to do it alone. I will protect and guide you and as you walk you will experience the other gifts that He has for those who love Him. Its not a one sided religion it is a living breathing relationship that all you have to do is say help me father and He runs and says I will help you my son for I love you with a everlasting love. This is the free gift what, why would you not want to find out if this is true. If it is true then you just won the biggest treasure that you will ever win, If its not then you have lost nothing. You will pay 5.00 for a lottery ticket why wouldn't you invest some time to see if the God of the Universe is really just that? forget thought you cant think enough to get you there forget reason you cannot reason your way to heaven just ask with a humble heart and He will come and sit and dine with you. He will walk beside you and help you warn you of things that will hurt you and get you out of troubles that are of your own making. Religon will tell you how to perform for your God to accept you relationship says call on me and see if I will not move mountains for you my beloved. And the closer you get the more heaven opens up and you see things that were not possible suddenly become possible. You walk with confidence and think differently because you walk with the King. I am so glad that He loves me and goes before me and makes the path straight. There have been many time in my life before knowing Him and after that I have tried to do things that I knew were my own ideas and creation and most lead not necessarily to destruction but also were not the best He wanted for me. Yet He let me do them and then when I was at the end of myself and called for help He said come, let me refresh you and lets get this worked out together. Never and I do mean never have I felt condemned in doing a wrong thing. I knew it was wrong and was told many times that it is not a good thing but never felt condemned. Unlike when I tell my faults to man do I feel the heat of condemnation on my very being. So when God set the rules up and said I will tell you the way to follow and we dont do it, I know I was wrong, because like the Jews He always warns guides helps protect loves cherishes restores blesses the ones He loves. and want ALL to follow, so this is why I look at things differently and have learned that if He says no its for my good not to deny me something that will be good for me but ultimately I make the decision.

[alph]

Why is it that when the prostitute washed jesus’s feet with her hair, then asked for forgiveness, he said “your sins are forgiven, go and SIN NO MORE”.  But so many Christians believe that they’re forgiven no matter what, just because they cry “jesus, forgive me…..” they can do what ever they want.  That’s the hypocrisy of Christianity.  Once saved, always saved.  You can kill anyone you want, just as long as you “love jesus”.  Even though he taught, love your neighbor as yourself, as the second greatest commandment.

[Robert]

I know Alph but that is not what Jesus said nor the Bible says that unfortunately is the error of man wanting to candy coat the Word of God so that no one would feel wrong. Jesus said it is the ones that do the will of my Father that are my children. Not the ones that go their own way and go to church then live like hell the rest of the time. Jesus has to abide in our hearts then we are His children not live on the outside looking in. Then so many wonder why the Bible doesnt seem to work for them, how sad.


Alph God is not mocked what ever a man sows this will he reap

[alph]

I know Alph but that is not what Jesus said nor the Bible says that unfortunately is the error of man wanting to candy coat the Word of God so that no one would feel wrong. Jesus said it is the ones that do the will of my Father that are my children. Not the ones that go their own way and go to church then live like hell the rest of the time. Jesus has to abide in our hearts then we are His children not live on the outside looking in. Then so many wonder why the Bible doesnt seem to work for them, how sad.

Bob, i finally agree with you.  you finally said something we agree on.

[Robert]

A friend of mine has seen the works of the Lord in my life but never accepted Him as Lord so he was going to another country to live and I knew that I would not see him so often and went to see him one last time. We talked in a bar for awhile where he worked and I asked him would you like to accept the Lord now. Surprised he said yes so right there we said the prayer and I prayed for him and when we lifted up our heads he started to look around. I was a little puzzled and said what are you looking at? He said things look different, how I said, he replied they seem brighter. How do I explain the removal of sin in mans terms there are no words to convince or thoughts that will tell you what happened no logic or reason just two men coming to the Lord and the removal of sin the experience of the real consequences that sin brings into our life and a new adventure to live life to its fullest. Those that are in sin dont need to be told they are going to hell that thought lives in them we need to be the way to the light the peace joy hope and good things that the Lord has for those who love Him. If you are not filled with these or know where to go to get these things then we as Christians should be the ones to be able to show and point to the one that will lead all there that are willing. I am so sorry for the damage done in the name of the Lord by lifeless,dead, vessels that are empty of all the good things that God is about. They do so much damage and hurt. Its not our place to make anyone do anything, but lead the way to the one who answers all things. Peace to you brothers

The more you press into God the more amazing things He will reveal and do for you. The giftings and callings of God are irrevocable. Dont live powerless in your life. We all have gifts that God wants to impart in our lives get them they are worth it.

[Chattanooga Mark]

If you believe in once saved, always saved you are walking a very dangerous route. You cannot shed a tear of repentance once and then continue to live like a sinner. If you do, you didn't truly repent and change in the first place. Salvation is our gift from God, what we do with our salvation is our gift to God.

Just because you met or meet hypocrit christians, why do you blame God and not the christian themselves? If anyone thinks they can attend a church on a Sunday morning or whenever it's convinient for them and live like a sinner rest of the time they are deceived.

I've met some Valkyrie owners that are hypocrits. Does that mean all of them are, or that the Valkyrie makes them so or that Honda is to blame? Of course not. I take each one on their own merit, good or bad. God's system is not a menu where we can pick and chose what we like or don't like. You either believe God or you call Him a liar. Black or white, simple as that. Of course humans want to say there's gray in the world. But guess what, gray isn't white, it's tainted with black.

Don't talk about what you used to do or go and that now you now think they're all goofy. Get back to God and into a bible based church where bible doctrine, NOT church doctrine is taught, practiced and put into action. Religion (each and every one of them) has no life, only God the Father, The Holy Spirit and Jesus have life.

A lot of 'good' people go to hell. That's because they have become their own god by using their own system of measure and not the God that made the standard in the first place. God has a funny thing about Himself; He thinks He's God. I'll take His measure over mans self righteousness each and every time.

Mark

[Robert]

I know there are some that dont like cut and paste sorry but this is whats happening now and gives wisdom to these times. 

2Ti 3:1  But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2Ti 3:2  For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3  unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2Ti 3:4  treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5  holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
2Ti 3:7  always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:12  Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
2Ti 3:13  But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14  You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
2Ti 3:15  and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16  All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2Ti 3:17  so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

[elraque]

For Jabba and the rest of you who talk about "being a good person"...

Is "being a good person" enough to get you into heaven? (That's a serious question).

What if you "sinned" before you "became a good person." Is there a price to be paid for your past sins? Are they simply washed away because you decide to become "a good person?" Or is there still a price to be paid for those sins that you have already committed. And what would that price be? Would YOU be able to pay it? If not, then by whom, and how would that price be paid? (All of which is irrelevant if there is no "price" (or consequence) associated with the sins of your past).

Bottom line questions: Exactly what does it take to get into "heaven"? Is "being a good person" enough, or is something else required?

[hubcapsc]

"Am I doomed to hell if I never accept Jesus as my savior?"  I think I live a lot more "Christian" life than most people I know.  I work hard.  Try to do good.  Give charity.  Try very hard to never screw anyone over.  Help people out as much as I can.  Don't steal, lie or cheat.  Is it REALLY irrelevant how good I am when I am alive?  God will REALLY choose a murderous, rapist, child molester over me, IF he accepts Jesus as his savior on hid deathbed?
 

Jabba

Our preacher talks about "works" (do good, don't steal, help others...) a lot... it would be difficult for someone to actually
be Christ-like, without works following. But works alone is not what brings salvation:

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift—  not from works...   Ephesians 2

The preacher also has told this story a few times: an unsaved person (let's go with  a murderous, rapist, child molester) realizes
how awful he is, and flings himself off the top of a 20 story building. On the way down he repents, and is saved - but he still
goes splat when he hits the bottom. God is not like a magic genie who protects us from the consequences of our actions.

God won't choose the molester over you, (or me) - he has already chosen all of us, now it is up to each one of us to choose him. For me
this was an intractable mental challenge. Till one day when I realized that already I just plain didn't want to be "lost and undone without
Christ"...

When the thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him, he was in. I reckon I'm in too. [edit: being "in" isn't what motivates me, not
wanting to be lost and undone without Christ is what motivates me... ]

I don't know what to make of 95 percent of the Bible. The 800 year old guy who spent 100 years building a wooden boat the size of an
aircraft carrier in his back yard and filled it with duck-billed platypuses and waterbuffaloes  - I have no idea how
to incorporate that into my life. You see people trying to incorporate stuff like that into science - I doubt those
people will ever get their spaceships to rondezvous in orbit or their nuclear power plants to light up. But I do
understand, and trust that lust, jealousy, envy and selfishness are not Christ-like, and that doing good, not stealing, and
helping others is Christ-like. And I trust that, while science can't "rate" envy vs helping others, those ratings are as carved in
stone as is the molecular weight of carbon (or whatever)...

-Mike

[Bobbo]

OK... so if an "innocent child" dies... he goes to heaven... wouldn't the best thing we could do for them is kill them before the age of accountability?  I mean, what's 80 years on this miserable ball of dirt compared to ETERNITY in heaven? 

Jabba

Your question reminds me of one I asked a long time ago.  Similar to the children question, I asked if people who have never heard of Jesus would still get into Heaven.  I wondered if God creates entire tribes in remote areas only to condemn them to a life of torture in Hell.  He responded that people who never have the opportunity to hear about Jesus do, indeed, get a free pass into Heaven.  I asked why would Christian missionaries go to these remote areas to bring the “Word of God” to these people when doing so could condemn them if they rejected the message.  If the purpose of these missions is to help get more people into Heaven, then they should leave well enough alone.  He stammered and stumbled and did a “fall back and punt” of reading Bible verses about proselytizing.  I have never gotten a straight answer about this since.

[Bobbo]

I know there are some that dont like cut and paste sorry but this is whats happening now and gives wisdom to these times. 

This is happening now, yesterday, last year, last decade, and last millennium, etc. ad nauseum.

These “last days” have been going on forever.  It is easy to apply generic phrases to any time period, and is not evidence of anything.

[Jeff K]

OK... so if an "innocent child" dies... he goes to heaven... wouldn't the best thing we could do for them is kill them before the age of accountability?  I mean, what's 80 years on this miserable ball of dirt compared to ETERNITY in heaven? 

Jabba

Your question reminds me of one I asked a long time ago.  Similar to the children question, I asked if people who have never heard of Jesus would still get into Heaven.  I wondered if God creates entire tribes in remote areas only to condemn them to a life of torture in Hell.  He responded that people who never have the opportunity to hear about Jesus do, indeed, get a free pass into Heaven.  I asked why would Christian missionaries go to these remote areas to bring the “Word of God” to these people when doing so could condemn them if they rejected the message.  If the purpose of these missions is to help get more people into Heaven, then they should leave well enough alone.  He stammered and stumbled and did a “fall back and punt” of reading Bible verses about proselytizing.  I have never gotten a straight answer about this since.

Hmm? Now that's two things we can agree on. What is this world coming to?

I've always said that the whole religion issue is geographical, If you were unlucky enough to be born in the outback of Australia in an aboriginal tribe, or deep in the jungles of South America,  even if you were born in Iraq, or India or a whole lot of places where you wouldn't even have the opportunity to learn about Christianity... your soul is automatically doomed to hell. Purely because you weren't lucky enough to be born into "the correct" geographical area.

[Serk]

I hate these religion threads, I always feel so unclean whenever I find myself nodding in agreement to Bobbo, Strong Eagle, etc...