Valve Stem life

[98valk]

So as not to completely hijack this thread http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,31643.0.html

I will start a new thread.

I know over the yrs riders have had the valve stems go bad. The OEM are made from EPDM syn rubber which is designed to meet SAE standards for longivity. The old style natural rubber type some of which are coming from china at a cheaper cost last only about 2 yrs.

see this list of compatable chemicals with EPDM.
 http://www.fbs-online.com/Centre/Prod/EPDM-chem-com-res.htm
from the list  Petroleum, certain type of oils including kerosine, motor oils, etc., and even Chlorine Water though not as severe as the oils, has a moderate effect. Reading though the list it also looks like some chemicals that are in waxes and other cleaning products can have different levels of effects. This might be why some are going bad and others have no problems.
http://www.fbs-online.com/Centre/Prod/EPDM-chem-com-res.htm

[Hoser]

Problem solved, permanent, had them on for years.  Hoser 
 http://www.shop.shinhopples.com/product.sc?productId=1129

[98valk]

Problem solved, permanent, had them on for years.  Hoser 
 http://www.shop.shinhopples.com/product.sc?productId=1129

how are they permanent if they use the same EPDM material as OEM? why are so many afraid of the OEM EPDM material and not the EPDM material in aftermarket valve stems?
just asking.

[Disco]

Come on, CA.  Have you ever held a patchboys in your hand and compared it to the oem?  If you had, you would know that the non-metal parts of a patchboys are only the seal, and when properly installed, the stems do not flex.  Will it fail?  Sure.  Even the metal parts will eventually fail.  But those failures will most likely not be immediate.  The problem with the oem stem is that the non-metal parts allow it to flex.  (What are those little plastic keepers that snap onto the wheel there for???).  Factory stems can go slowly, but they can also go quickly. 

To advocate the use of an obviously inferior product when the solution costs $4.00 plus shipping is unwise at best. 

PM, email, or post your address and I'll send you a pair to put in your saddlebag.  But do it soon. 

[98valk]

Come on, CA.  Have you ever held a patchboys in your hand and compared it to the oem?  If you had, you would know that the non-metal parts of a patchboys are only the seal, and when properly installed, the stems do not flex.  Will it fail?  Sure.  Even the metal parts will eventually fail.  But those failures will most likely not be immediate.  The problem with the oem stem is that the non-metal parts allow it to flex.  (What are those little plastic keepers that snap onto the wheel there for???).  Factory stems can go slowly, but they can also go quickly. 

To advocate the use of an obviously inferior product when the solution costs $4.00 plus shipping is unwise at best. 

PM, email, or post your address and I'll send you a pair to put in your saddlebag.  But do it soon. 

thanks for the offer.
all I'm getting at is that both use the same syn rubber material, the only reason the OEM will fail if the wrong fluids are put on it which will cause the material to fail. The patchboy and others use the same material, and can fail from the same fluids. The valve stems on the cages are the same material, they flex, I don't see massive recalls for failures whereas tire changes are being done at 50-60k miles more or less depending on tire type. where are all of the failure reports, whereas why are valkyrie OEMs failing so often? I don't read whereas other honda bikes have high failure rates.
just seams to me to be a chicken little event.

[tank_post142]

the honda valve is rubber supporting a 90 degree metal stem. this puts a lot of stress on the crappy rubber base. car valves are straight and do not experience the torque that valk valves are subjected to. patchboy stems are all metal with the rubber seals protected from sun exposure by cupped metal washers. the fact that many of us have experienced failures on the road speaks for itself.
 OH!! plus Willow says it's against the rules!!!

[Farther]

I think that if you do due diligents and change the OEM valve stem everytime you change the tire, you won't have a problem.  That being said, I use these:  http://www.motorcycleanchor.com/tire_valves/index.htm

[Ricky-D]

I have to agree with you CA.

I've been using the stockers now since I bought the bike in 2000 and have not had an inkling of trouble.

The recent replies seem to me to smack of intolerance and overstatement. Obviously couched in terms of scare words which are designed to impress the lesser (Valkyrie) experienced riders on this forum.

The stock air stems are a well designed assembly that Honda would not have caused to be manufactured if there was hint of non-reliability.

Regarding that particular air stem (patchboy) I can see great danger in the way it is constructed especially in view of your post on the material used in the application of the stem.

I can see that particular item blowing out of the wheel when the nut on the inside of the tire loosens up enough (from the deterioration of the rubber causing looseness) to allow the nut (which is hidden inside the tire) to pop off!

Now I also want to point out that there must be many riders who without good mechanical aptitude will simply continue to push against the stock stem using the rubber mounting to give enough resistance to enable the air chuck to operate and fill the tire and then again do the same with an air gauge.

I feel confident that is the reason Honda put that support along with the stem.  Still, I suggest that a finger behind the stem is a reliable means to eliminate any future problem with the stock assembly.

I also feel that riders who have trouble with this particular item is directly related to their experience with their automobile tires in which case they can simply press down on the air stem with little regard to any consequences since it is a straight line force applied directly to the wheel rim through the stem.

I won't encumber this post with further observations.

***

[Daniel Meyer]

Wow. Just.....wow.

[Farther]

I won't encumber this post with further observations.
***

Thanks god for that!

[hmt81]

Can't vouch for the OE stems, when I changed out tires, I got these at Jake Wilson. The nut attaches them from the outside so you can check tightness on occasion.

[Valkpilot]

Wow. Just.....wow.

+1

Well said.

[Disco]

I think that if you do due diligents and change the OEM valve stem everytime you change the tire, you won't have a problem.  That being said, I use these:  http://www.motorcycleanchor.com/tire_valves/index.htm

I agree 100%, Farther.  And, those stems are really great.  I'm just stuck on the $4.00 pair versus the $32.00 pair...  

The recent replies seem to me to smack of intolerance and overstatement.

Well-done, Ricky!  That's the first time I remember you poking fun at yourself!    BTW, the patchboys stems have two nuts to jam and there's always loctite.  

[hubcapsc]

Wow. Just.....wow.

[Disco]

If I've come off stronger than usual, let me explain.

The first person I ever spoke to about Valkyries - almost two years before I finally got mine - was later involved in a probably-should-have-been-fatal 70+mph get-off caused by a dealer's improper re-use of / failure to replace an oem valve stem combined with the failure to reinstall the plastic keeper.  I don't know how many miles/months were on the stem or previous rear tire, but the new tire only made it 610 miles or so down the road before the catastrophic failure.  The resulting broken bones, totaled bike, traumatized riding buddy (who is a former motorcop and accident investigator/reconstructor), traumatized family members, 4-year lawsuit, 4 years of not riding, and multi-$100K settlement might have all been avoided by using a friggin $2.00 valve stem.  By that calculation, even $16.00 stems are cheap.

[Hoser]

I replace the seals on the patch boys every  couple tire replacements.  Just like I replaced the oem stems when I used them..  I bought an IS once with 55k, had never had the stems changed, leaked air out when I rode it home, that's when I got the patchboys. Put them on the tourer also, put them on the standard later when I got it.  Hoser  

[valkyriemc]

If I've come off stronger than usual, let me explain.

The first person I ever spoke to about Valkyries - almost two years before I finally got mine - was later involved in a probably-should-have-been-fatal 70+mph get-off caused by a dealer's improper re-use of / failure to replace an oem valve stem combined with the failure to reinstall the plastic keeper.  I don't know how many miles/months were on the stem or previous rear tire, but the new tire only made it 610 miles or so down the road before the catastrophic failure.  The resulting broken bones, totaled bike, traumatized riding buddy (who is a former motorcop and accident investigator/reconstructor), traumatized family members, 4-year lawsuit, 4 years of not riding, and multi-$100K settlement might have all been avoided by using a friggin $2.00 valve stem.  By that calculation, even $16.00 stems are cheap.

 

Yo. What a story. Seen a 35mph highside/ getoff_ thought he was dead.

[Scott in Ok]

Can't vouch for the OE stems, when I changed out tires, I got these at Jake Wilson. The nut attaches them from the outside so you can check tightness on occasion.

I have the same valve stems from Jake Wilson.  Been happy with them so far.

And Daniel.... I couldn't agree more.

-Scott

[Buda]

Just replaced my valve stems...stock may have never been changed....because the rear started to leak.  I have no idea how old they were...could have been original.  Went with the patchboys.

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Lost OEM stem on the way to The Natchez Trace Ride we did a couple years ago. Had plenty of help with me and also a patchboy in the saddlebag....Now all my bikes have the patchboy ...Ever broke a bead down and changed the stem on the bike....It sucks even with great friends along to help....OEM stems are cheap junk compared to the all steel one's IMO.

[BamaDrifter64]

I'm using patchboy air stems because my rear stock one sprung a leak around the base...seemed the prudent thing to do since it was replaced when the tire was installed...about 12k miles on it when it went...thankfully it went while I was parked...

The only other thing I have to say is to the lesser experienced Valkyrie owners...if you let the little stringy piece of your pink frilly thongy panties ride up the crack of your arse, you're going to get all pissy and show your arse...and I don't care if that statement impresses you or not...

Dave

I have to agree with you CA.

I've been using the stockers now since I bought the bike in 2000 and have not had an inkling of trouble.

The recent replies seem to me to smack of intolerance and overstatement. Obviously couched in terms of scare words which are designed to impress the lesser (Valkyrie) experienced riders on this forum.

The stock air stems are a well designed assembly that Honda would not have caused to be
manufactured if there was hint of non-reliability.

Regarding that particular air stem (patchboy) I can see great danger in the way it is constructed especially in view of your post on the material used in the application of the stem.

I can see that particular item blowing out of the wheel when the nut on the inside of the tire loosens up enough (from the deterioration of the rubber causing looseness) to allow the nut (which is hidden inside the tire) to pop off!

Now I also want to point out that there must be many riders who without good mechanical aptitude will simply continue to push against the stock stem using the rubber mounting to give enough resistance to enable the air chuck to operate and fill the tire and then again do the same with an air gauge.

I feel confident that is the reason Honda put that support along with the stem.  Still, I suggest that a finger behind the stem is a reliable means to eliminate any future problem with the stock assembly.

I also feel that riders who have trouble with this particular item is directly related to their experience with their automobile tires in which case they can simply press down on the air stem with little regard to any consequences since it is a straight line force applied directly to the wheel rim through the stem.

I won't encumber this post with further observations.

***

[michaelyoung254]

The front valve stem on my bike failed causing a sudden and complete loss of air in the tire. Both my wife and I were on the bike traveling about 70 mph when it failed, but thank God that other than a scare, nothing bad happened. At first, I thought that it was a tire failure, but after closer inspection I found that it was the valve stem which failed, and not the tire. I hadn't had the bike for very long, and to be honest, I had not even checked the air pressure in the tires since purchasing the bike (just did the ol' kick and squeeze the tire to see if it was nice and tight).  I then checked the rear, and found that the rubber around the base of the valve stem was cracked very badly as well, but was still holding pressure. I know that some on this board think just because I haven't been riding a Valkyrie for years and years that I'm too stupid to understand the extreme mechanics of checking the air pressure in the tires, maybe so, but I'm smart enough to know a poor design when I see one. The stock valve stem design with nothing but rubber base holding a 90^o metal stem which is held in place by a crappy little piece of plastic is an extremely piss poor design to begin with. Looking at some of the other postings about the Patchboy or the Jake Wilson, it's easy to see that these are much superior designs because the seal at the wheel isn't actually part of structural design of the valve stem, but only used as a seal which is held in place by a much more secure metal nut. That being said, I replaced both stems on my bike with short straight valve stems which will not place undue stress on the seal, and also allows me to use those cool looking lighted caps for the valve stem  If I were to use the 90^o valve stems, I think that I'd go with the Jake Wilson design because as "hmt81" stated, the nut is on the outside of the wheel, and would be easy to tighten if needed.

[Mr Steve]

I had a stock stem fail on my front wheel.  I always hold the back when filling.  What happened was that plastic holder broke and flew off at some point and I did not notice.  The forces then caused a split in the rubber right on the inside where it flexes.  I noticed it because the bike suddenly wanted to go straight and I had to fight to turn even enough to get to the breakdown lane.  Didn't cause an unplanned get-off though, thank $deity, slow loss rather than rapid loss.  Was all quite uneventful.

[hubcapsc]

How hard is it to replace these without removing tne tire or wheel?  Just breaking the bead.

It is doable, even under bad conditions.



In the comfort of your home, with whatever you need to reset the bead readily at your
disposal, it should be pretty easy... when using clamps to pop the bead, it is good to
use something to buffer the "point loads" of the clamp tips...



-Mike

[Walküre]

Now I also want to point out that there must be many riders who without good mechanical aptitude will simply continue to push against the stock stem using the rubber mounting to give enough resistance to enable the air chuck to operate and fill the tire and then again do the same with an air gauge.

Hmmm....two choices:

Choice one:

a) Locate valve stem

b) gingerly, place either left index finger, or alternatively, left F-finger behind rim valve stem, taking GREAT care that finger is indeed on back of stem, and not touching the rim valve holder.

c) Hold rim valve with slowly increasing pressure to precisely 2.7356 in/oz pressure, at the same time as placing air hose fill nozzle on the end of the rim valve, slowly increasing pressure, ensuring that at no time, is there more than 2.7356 in/oz pressure on the air hose fill nozzle, to avoid displacement of the rim valve more than .0001° from static position. This is to avoid any possibility of deflection of the rim valve holder, or rim valve, incurring damage to said rim valve holder OR rim valve.

d) Squeeze handle on air hose fill nozzle, to inject air into tire, maintaining strict adherence to step C.

e) Slowly, remove pressure to both the rim valve, and the air hose fill nozzle, in equal amounts, to avoid said deflection in step c.

f) After removing air hose fill nozzle, continue to hold finger of choice behind rim valve, and while observing proper 2.7356 in/oz pressure, increase pressure on appropriate air pressure gauge, to 2.7356 in/oz pressure, momentarily. Slowly decrease both pressures accordingly, and visually check air pressure.

g) Repeat steps as necessary, until desired pressure is achieved, at all times taking utmost care that the rim valve, OR rim valve holder ever experience undue lateral pressure, at any time.

h) Should over-pressure become obvious, please adhere to the following steps....

OR:

a) Air up tire

b) Check pressure

c) Repeat

Hmmm. Is it just me??

For what it's worth, I have Patch Boys, and keep a half-dozen in my bag, just in case someone I run into doesn't have a set.

R

[Disco]

If I were to use the 90o valve stems, I think that I'd go with the Jake Wilson design because as "hmt81" stated, the nut is on the outside of the wheel, and would be easy to tighten if needed.

That's where I'm going next time.  Wrestling the rear end / final drive just to break the bead and tighten the blankety stem is a REAL pisser.  It just had to be the rear...

FWIW, when 5_19's oem front stem failed as we were riding out of Cheyenne, WY, there were four in our group.  We all had tools, three of us had compressors and plug kits, and two of us had extra patchboys stems.  However, none of us had c-clamps, lift, or lift adapter.  But, Hay, there was a dead-blow mallet in there...  What got us back to town was that were able to run zip ties from spoke to spoke and under the stem to hold it "closed".

[Gunslinger]

thanks for the offer.
all I'm getting at is that both use the same syn rubber material, the only reason the OEM will fail if the wrong fluids are put on it which will cause the material to fail. The patchboy and others use the same material, and can fail from the same fluids. The valve stems on the cages are the same material, they flex, I don't see massive recalls for failures whereas tire changes are being done at 50-60k miles more or less depending on tire type. where are all of the failure reports, whereas why are valkyrie OEMs failing so often? I don't read whereas other honda bikes have high failure rates.
just seams to me to be a chicken little event.

The failures I have seen (my experience) with OEM stems have all occurred when the plastic spacer has gone missing and the failure has subsequently been splitting on the opposite side of the stem from the valve. The OEM 90 degree stems on the Valkyrie do not seem to do well when unsupported and subjected to centrifugal force as the tire spins. I believe that you are correct that when supported by the plastic spacer there should be little difference in valve stem life between the OEM and the all metal valve stems.

I choose to use all metal stems (and pay a few dollars more for them, nothing close to the $32 a set that has been claimed here though) because it gives me piece of mind that If/when that little plastic support goes missing the valve stem will support itself and not tear causing a loss of pressure at speed. I think that a straight valve stem would be fine as well, but there are clearance issues there which create problems when adding air or checking pressure.

I don't know that anyone on this board intended to lay out an edict that all OEM stems must be replaced with an all metal variety, I think that people were simply offering advice.

[Willow]

In all this thread there are no reports of failures of the unsupported replacement stems. 

Incidentally, I've personally seen two of the OEMs fail with the plastic support piece intact.

My policy is to never wish bad experiences on folks just so they will learn, but I'm definitely fighting the urge in this instance. 

[98valk]

too think that centrifugal force can cause them to fail, is to say that all of the honda engineers failed their centrifugal force calculation classes in their first and second yr of engineering school.

Its amazing that after all of these posts, not one comments or tries to discuss the links I provided to the chemicals that detetoiate the EPDM syn rubber used in the OEM valve stems. One of the items that ruins them is petroleum distillates which are in all cleaning fluids, cleaners and polishes/waxes.
so maybe the OEM valve stems are failing from the products being put on them unknowingly by their owners. I believe that this is the most logical reason for their failure.

[Jess Tolbirt]

too think that centrifugal force can cause them to fail, is to say that all of the honda engineers failed their centrifugal force calculation classes in their first and second yr of engineering school.

Its amazing that after all of these posts, not one comments or tries to discuss the links I provided to the chemicals that detetoiate the EPDM syn rubber used in the OEM valve stems. One of the items that ruins them is petroleum distillates which are in all cleaning fluids, cleaners and polishes/waxes.
so maybe the OEM valve stems are failing from the products being put on them unknowingly by their owners. I believe that this is the most logical reason for their failure.

not the chemicals,, its the cetrifigul force applied when the little plastic thingys wear out,,,
i use the straight stubby regular valve stem like on a car...just bend it out to check the air ,,i will not have another valve stem fail on me with Bev on the back,,the metal ones look like they would be great but mine have no force applied to them,,,

[Gunslinger]

In all this thread there are no reports of failures of the unsupported replacement stems. 

Incidentally, I've personally seen two of the OEMs fail with the plastic support piece intact.

My policy is to never wish bad experiences on folks just so they will learn, but I'm definitely fighting the urge in this instance. 

I have experienced two (one at speed) and seen another one. Not a huge number, but I have intimate experience with only 4 bikes (8 wheels) and those three are the only ones without plastic supports. (As stated before, simply my experience).

Incidentally, the one failure at highway speed was on an 8 year old bike with 20k miles.

[Gunslinger]

too think that centrifugal force can cause them to fail, is to say that all of the honda engineers failed their centrifugal force calculation classes in their first and second yr of engineering school.

Its amazing that after all of these posts, not one comments or tries to discuss the links I provided to the chemicals that detetoiate the EPDM syn rubber used in the OEM valve stems. One of the items that ruins them is petroleum distillates which are in all cleaning fluids, cleaners and polishes/waxes.
so maybe the OEM valve stems are failing from the products being put on them unknowingly by their owners. I believe that this is the most logical reason for their failure.

The fact that Honda provided an extra support for the OEM valve stem tells me that there was some consideration on the Honda engineers part.

I don't comment or discuss the chemicals you refer to because I have little knowledge or experience in chemistry and do not feel qualified to have an opinion. Since you have requested my input in that field I will agree that chemicals most likely contribute to the problem. I don't see how this supports your proclamation that the OEM are equal in quality an performance to a replacement which is all metal.

The all metal valve stems have a much smaller surface area to be affected by chemicals and petroleum distillates, and the seal which is exposed is much thicker than the OEM stem wall where (in my experience) failures occur. It would make logical sense to me then that regardless of whether you are entirely correct, I am entirely correct, or (as is most likely the case) there is contributing factors in both of our arguments the all metal 90 degree stems are somewhat superior to the OEM.

If you choose to run the OEM stems, knock your self out. I am not on a crusade to convert the unwashed masses. I am simply sharing my experience and offering recommendations.

Can we now go talk about oil or tires or something else everyone can agree on? Maybe Petcocks and Pingles?

[Mr. Nuts]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words...




Former astronaut Frank Borman once said, "A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill."