Harley being sued because their engines are too hot

[Full_Throttle]

I'm not making it up.  Not sure if this has been covered here; If it has, my apologies.

Here is the link to the story.  ???

http://www.hdforums.com/industry-news/things-getting-hot-for-harley-davidsons-air-cooled-engines.php?=industrynews&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign=

[Dougger]

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Things Getting Hot for Harley-Davidson's Air-Cooled Engines

Air_Cooled.jpg
Action Suit Over Air-Cooled Engine Heat Advances
by Jason Giacchino

There is an ever-increasing movement of folks who feel Harley-Davidson has taken the air-cooled engine about as far as it can go.  It seems like, without fail, anticipation rises among industry insiders and consumers alike that H-D is finally going to deliver upon rumors of making the move to liquid cooling.  Of course back in 2001 when the V-Rod was first announced, it almost appeared as though the air-cooled days were numbered, but in the decade that's followed, H-D has silenced its skeptics by proving the air-cooled Evolution engine and liquid-cooled Revolution design can share a product line in harmony.

Well, believe it or not, there are more than just technology hounds taking a stand against H-D's reluctance to adopt modern liquid cooling.  A federal judge ruled that a class action lawsuit against Harley-Davidson, claiming Harley engines run so hot that they pose a constant danger of burning their operators/passengers, is going forward.

The sympathetic arbitrator sided with four bikers claiming their Harley-Davidson motorcycles were defective in design.

HD_Air_Cooled_Cut_Away.jpgThe complaint goes on to state that since 1999, Twin Cam engines between 88 and 110 cubic inches are capable of producing excess heat - enough in fact to cause clothing to catch fire in normal operating conditions.

The suit also alleges that the motors burn hot enough to pose a danger of burn injury to both riders and passengers. As if all of these concerns for personal safety aren't valid enough, the suit even contains evidence that such high operating temperatures causes premature engine wear and transmission failures in certain models.

"The Motor Company" was hoping the Eastern District of California court would dismiss the suit under state law, but this latest word that the U.S. District Judge sided with the biker complainants is big news indeed.

Of course, the allegations of a few riders will unlikely sway the entire manufacturing process of Harley-Davidson, but there is legitimate concern that as the suit passes into higher courts, other sympathetic judges may determine that such high operating temperatures are in fact design defects and hence affect not only future engine production, but retroactively demand updates to existing H-Ds via mandatory recalls. 

Further complicating matters, the plaintiffs are relying upon undisputed evidence of Harley marketing larger engines, which are unable to meet emission standards in many states (one of those being California).

On the flip side, those opposed to the idea of H-D facing legal action for simply doing what they've always done claim that higher operating temperatures on air-cooled motors are to be expected and fall under the jurisdiction of common sense.

Could this finally be the end of air-cooled engines? Voice your opinion here!

[Rocketman]

I am with them on the idea that HD should be moving to liquid cooled, but I'm lost on how they have a legal case.  It's not as if the riders didn't know what they were getting.

[Moonshot_1]

I thought the suit was about the engines getting a cup of coffee too hot and the coffee would scald you if you spilled it when the engine shook.

I mean really? The engines get so hot they can burn you? Who would have thought?

Morons

This case should be heard in the biggest, meanest biker bar in the country.
And I'm not even a Harley fan. But even Harley Davidson don't deserve this crap.

[Ricky-D]

The plaintiffs will not win the case but

the EPA will eventually win out an the

air cooled motor will be no more.

The S&S wedge motor meet the EPA

requirement but S&S is the patent

holder and they're giving Harley

Hell.  The "Wedge" is air cooled.

***

[tank_post142]

not an HD fan myself, but, it looks like environmentalists just taking a different tack to get them to stop producing the A/C engine.

[old2soon]

These people realize of course that a water cooled engine gets hot enough to burn you also?-don't they?? I guess some people are REALLY that stupid. I have to put this in the same looney toon that hot coffe suit came from. Damnation buffalo bob!! RIDE SAFE.

[The Anvil]

Do a little research on the hot coffee case. You might be surprised by what you learn.

[Grumpy]

These people realize of course that a water cooled engine gets hot enough to burn you also?-don't they?? I guess some people are REALLY that stupid. I have to put this in the same looney toon that hot coffe suit came from. Damnation buffalo bob!! RIDE SAFE.

They run a whole lot hotter than a water cooled motor, look around the harley forums, on a hot day, 275 to 285 degrees is normal. My friends harley, I have shot with a no contact heat gun, and saw temps of 260 degrees after a 12 mile ride to my house. Hot enough I don't want to ride it.

[Cruzen]

Usually the hotter the engine the lower the emisions.  Hence the reason all car engines now run 40-60 degrees hotter than those in the 1970's.  So I fail to see how the EPA will have anything to say about the matter.  Besides all Hardley's are now fuel injected and again low emissions. 

[BigAl]

I have a 96 cubic inch motor that after I put after market pipes on(MOST PEOPLE DO THIS) open air box and engine tuner to richen the mixture.

10% is all it takes.

It runs cooler than my valk in the summer time.

Bunch that are sueing are running stock harleys with the pods and they will get hotter than hell that way.

Take the pods off of the ultra and you get instant relief.

Harley even tells the morons to do this and they still won't do the obvious.

Engine oil gets to at least 240 degrees and that is where it will run the best.

The motor is all aluminum just like the air cooled honda, kawasaki, and others.

They got hot and nobody complained.

Harley aint any different than the old air cooled hondas.

The Yamaha Star Line has a huge v-twin that is air cooled, nobody suing them, they get hot too.

[gregc]

I have ridden a 2006 Ultra Classic, It is an injected engine. The heat that comes off the rear cylinder, mostly on the left side is horrible. It transfers so much heat to your leg you have to keep moving your leg away from the bike.  In slow moving traffic your leg gets so hot, you can smell the cloth of your pants cooking.  I wonder if this is the problem they are talking about?

[Moonshot_1]

Do a little research on the hot coffee case. You might be surprised by what you learn.

OK I'll bite.

It wasn't McDonalds fault at all. The suit was bogus. Although the woman in the incident was severely burned it was her own fault. And there were other factors as the clothes she was wearing made the burn worse by having the propensity to hold the heat directly to the skin. (Cotton sweat pants) and while in the car, she removed the lid.

Now if she had ordered an icy coke and took the lid off to add a bit of lemon, and got hot coffee instead and spilled it, then tada, you got a case. But she ordered hot coffee, she knew it was hot, she took off the lid while in a car, she spilled it on herself, she wore clothes that intensified the burning effects.

Sorry she got burned but it ain't Micky-D's fault.

[bscrive]

No it wasn't Mickey-D's fault it was the dim wit that sued.  I think that is what Anvil is getting at.  All you need is a good lawyer and some luck and you will win.

[BIG--T]

I have ridden a 2006 Ultra Classic, It is an injected engine. The heat that comes off the rear cylinder, mostly on the left side is horrible. It transfers so much heat to your leg you have to keep moving your leg away from the bike.  In slow moving traffic your leg gets so hot, you can smell the cloth of your pants cooking.  I wonder if this is the problem they are talking about?

Yeah, stock pipes with no heat deflector will flat get your inner thigh! That rear cylinder gets HOT!!

[BIG--T]

I have a 96 cubic inch motor that after I put after market pipes on(MOST PEOPLE DO THIS) open air box and engine tuner to richen the mixture.

10% is all it takes.

It runs cooler than my valk in the summer time.

Bunch that are sueing are running stock harleys with the pods and they will get hotter than hell that way.

Take the pods off of the ultra and you get instant relief.

Harley even tells the morons to do this and they still won't do the obvious.

Engine oil gets to at least 240 degrees and that is where it will run the best.

The motor is all aluminum just like the air cooled honda, kawasaki, and others.

They got hot and nobody complained.

Harley aint any different than the old air cooled hondas.

The Yamaha Star Line has a huge v-twin that is air cooled, nobody suing them, they get hot too.

You're right, there are a lot of air cooled metrics out there and I've owned a few with the last being a Suzuki 1500 Intruder. If they get Harley, they'll have to get the rest too, and I'm referring to the EPA. BTW Al, do you have an Ultra?

Tony

[Rocketman]

The Yamaha Star Line has a huge v-twin that is air cooled, nobody suing them, they get hot too.

First rule of lawsuits:
Find the biggest pockets, and target them.

[hotglue #43]

Having both a Valk, and an Electra-glide..... I will have ta say I get more heat off the Valk..... Just sayin....

[BIG--T]

Having both a Valk, and an Electra-glide..... I will have ta say I get more heat off the Valk..... Just sayin....

Yeah I really feel it when I have my feet on the boards, but not too bad when put my feet on the highway pegs above the heads.

[The Anvil]

No it wasn't Mickey-D's fault it was the dim wit that sued.  I think that is what Anvil is getting at.  All you need is a good lawyer and some luck and you will win.

No, what I'm getting at is that McDonald's coffee was not just garden variety hot, it was dangerously hot and they knew it.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants

What you don't hear about is the reason why the settlement is sealed and secret. McDonalds used to run a promotion where seniors got a bottomless cup of coffee if they came into the store, the idea being that they'd buy other things as well. It was essentially a loss-leader. Problem is; seniors just came in for their cup of coffee and cluttered up the place without buying anything else. At some point McDonald's needed a way out but didn't want to alienate the oldsters by cutting off their supply completely so they issued an internal memo stating that coffee should be kept at 185 degrees rationalizing that the longer cooldown period before consuming would lead to less cups consumed over the course of a stay. That coffe at 185 degrees could do this:



Now imagine that's your pecker burnt to a crisp. She required skin grafts, anyone know how painful those are?

The settlement was made with the agreement that this memo never be made public and that the plaintiff drop any claim to a retrial based on new evidence. Another part of the agreement was that McDonald's would issue a corporate mandate requiring that their coffee be kept as a safer temperature.

I can't tell you how I know about it, but I do and I personally think McD's got off easy.

[Moonshot_1]

As long as the coffee stayed in the cup there was no problem.
McDonald's didn't spill the coffee, didn't take the lid off the coffee, didn't do anything except give her hot coffee in a cup, hot coffee that she ordered.
That they increased the temp of the coffee isn't an issue. It's in a cup. As long as it's in the cup it's safe. If you're going to play with it in a moving car and take the risk of spilling it, you take the risk. Not the folks that sold you what you asked for.

[CISE]

Product liability is a big scam here in the U.S.

1/3 of the cost of a ladder is to cover liability insurance for people who misuse a ladder (use it as a scaffold, lean it against power lines, etc).

Lawn movers were forced to add "Keep hands and feet clear" on mower decks because a duo of California residents sue lawn boy when they lost their fingers when they picked up a running lawn mower to use it as a hedge trimmer (yes alcohol was involved).

So suing a manufacturer because their air cooled internal combustion engine gets too hot does make sense - nonsense IMHO, but sense none the less

[DIGGER]

All Harley has to do is to put a warning tag on the tank that says

'HEAT FROM THE ENGINE MAY BURN YOUR LEGS".....problem solved

[Robert]

Just another freaking thing that low life *********** are trying to change here in America and prosper from. Just another thing the courts are going to decide for us, like they are the benefactors and protectors of our exsistance. How many things have the courts taken away from us either through product liability issues or down right decisions. I think that as for the defective issue that would be a hard road because the design dictates how the thing runs and has been accepted for years and is still accepted. Police have done alright with them. How come this isn't thrown out as frivolous?

[MP]

As long as the coffee stayed in the cup there was no problem.
McDonald's didn't spill the coffee, didn't take the lid off the coffee, didn't do anything except give her hot coffee in a cup, hot coffee that she ordered.
That they increased the temp of the coffee isn't an issue. It's in a cup. As long as it's in the cup it's safe. If you're going to play with it in a moving car and take the risk of spilling it, you take the risk. Not the folks that sold you what you asked for.

How hot is coffee as it comes out of a coffee maker?  It boils it to make it work, so I assume pretty hot.  I remember as a kid, farm women making coffee the old way, boiling it in a pot.  They would take it, as it still boiled, and pour into cups and serve.  I bet it was over 185!

I also remember my grandfather and lots of other men, they would pour their coffee out of their cups, into their saucers.  They then blew on the coffee in the saucer to cool it, then would slurp it out of the saucer directly.  I bet that was over 185 too, when poured into the saucer!

But, I do NOT remember ANY of them drinking it in their car!  As stated above, THAT is the problem.  We take a product, use differently, then SUE when we have a problem of OUR OWN making.

MP

MP

[Quicksilver]

Has anyone who spends any time on motorcycles in general , not been burned by a hot exhaust pipe?
We have all been taught not to touch an electric stove element, a lit candle, or any fire, because it will burn us. I doubt that those inventors will be sued any time soon.
 I agree with DIGGER.

[The Anvil]

As long as the coffee stayed in the cup there was no problem.
McDonald's didn't spill the coffee, didn't take the lid off the coffee, didn't do anything except give her hot coffee in a cup, hot coffee that she ordered.
That they increased the temp of the coffee isn't an issue. It's in a cup. As long as it's in the cup it's safe. If you're going to play with it in a moving car and take the risk of spilling it, you take the risk. Not the folks that sold you what you asked for.

You're missing the entire point though which is that it never needed to be that hot in the first place. It should not cause 3rd degree burns.

I'm willing to bet that to a man here if it were your junk seared to uselesness that you'd be suing. You can protest otherwise, but I'm not believing you.

[solo1]

Interesting post. Going from HD to coffee temp was a stretch. Well, maybe not, I'm sure that you can buy HD coffee.

Per the experts, coffee is best brewed at 185-190 F.  Probably not a well known fact.  Maybe McDonald was trying to improve their coffee and didn't take into account that S$$$ happens.

This kinda reminds me of the first time I ever flipped a prop. It was an old Aeronca (sp).  I was asked to flip the prop to start. I wasn't too happy but I gave it a try.  No big problem but I knew that if I did it wrong, that wooden prop would CHEW ME UP AND SPIT ME OUT, even though the Aeronca was powered by a  55  or 60 HP engine.  The engine started on the first flip and I was well clear when it did.

What does this have to do with hot coffee?  About the same as hot coffee has to do with HD's engune heat problem.

[The Anvil]

Interesting post. Going from HD to coffee temp was a stretch. Well, maybe not, I'm sure that you can buy HD coffee.

Per the experts, coffee is best brewed at 185-190 F.  Probably not a well known fact.  Maybe McDonald was trying to improve their coffee and didn't take into account that S$$$ happens.

This kinda reminds me of the first time I ever flipped a prop. It was an old Aeronca (sp).  I was asked to flip the prop to start. I wasn't too happy but I gave it a try.  No big problem but I knew that if I did it wrong, that wooden prop would CHEW ME UP AND SPIT ME OUT, even though the Aeronca was powered by a  55  or 60 HP engine.  The engine started on the first flip and I was well clear when it did.

What does this have to do with hot coffee?  About the same as hot coffee has to do with HD's engune heat problem.

Hand propping is scary the first couple times, especially on a tail-dragger. I'm glad I rarely work around props at all anymore. Someone once said to me "yeah but don't you get complacent if you don't work on them all the time"? NO. You never get complacent about a big hunk of metal spinning that fast.

Funny story. A couple years ago I came home with a cut on my head because I bumped into a prop tip. My wife asked what happened. I told her I walked into a prop.

"Oh my god, was the engine on?"

 

[The Anvil]

BTW, you don't need to brew coffee that hot. Before we got our Keurig at work I used to hand brew single cups all the time using the microwave, then I started using the hot water dispenser when we got a hot/cold dispenser. Speaking of the Keurig, just this past summer I spilled most of a fresh brewed cup down the front of my shirt. Hurt like hell, but my skin didn't blister and fall off. You do not need to boil water for good coffee.

Another thing to note; older folks may suffer burns far more easily than younger folks. McDonald, knowing that oldsters are fond of their coffee, MAYBE should have taken this into account.

[Moonshot_1]

Interesting post. Going from HD to coffee temp was a stretch. Well, maybe not, I'm sure that you can buy HD coffee.

Per the experts, coffee is best brewed at 185-190 F.  Probably not a well known fact.  Maybe McDonald was trying to improve their coffee and didn't take into account that S$$$ happens.

This kinda reminds me of the first time I ever flipped a prop. It was an old Aeronca (sp).  I was asked to flip the prop to start. I wasn't too happy but I gave it a try.  No big problem but I knew that if I did it wrong, that wooden prop would CHEW ME UP AND SPIT ME OUT, even though the Aeronca was powered by a  55  or 60 HP engine.  The engine started on the first flip and I was well clear when it did.

What does this have to do with hot coffee?  About the same as hot coffee has to do with HD's engune heat problem.

So did you have a hot cup of McDonald's coffee when you flipped the prop? If not, STOP HIJACKING THE THREAD! LOLOLOLOL

[The Anvil]

So did you have a hot cup of McDonald's coffee when you flipped the prop?

I believe you be arrested for that.

[Popeye]

Having both a Valk, and an Electra-glide..... I will have ta say I get more heat off the Valk..... Just sayin....

+ 1

My 07 Ultra with the 96 engine is hotter than my 05 Electra with the 88 engine.  The heat shields
I just put one make a big difference.  My wife even commented how much better it was.

[The Anvil]

Harleys with pipes that run on the outside near your leg get ridiculously hot. Not the kind of overall heat the Valk pours out (which is a blessing in cooler weather) but intense localized heat. It's very easy to torch your right leg on some Harleys.

[raker]

I read last night that the 2012s will let the rider shut down the rear cylinder on a hot day when the bike is idling.

[Art708]

I read last night that the 2012s will let the rider shut down the rear cylinder on a hot day when the bike is idling.

   I think this is an automatic thing when the temp reaches a certain point...rider has no imput.

[BigAl]

Big-T I have an Electraglide Standard.

[BigAl]

The shut down is achieved on the rear cylinder when you roll the wireless throtte forward, and on later ones it did it automatically

with a download from the dealer,

but most everyone that got the download ,,,,came back and had it reversed.

Cylinder not fireing was too weird I guess.

[Valkahuna]

Big Al,

HD still has that automatic rear cylinder deactivation feature. They actually refer to it as "Parade Mode" now. All it does basically is to shut off the fuel to the rear cylinder.

Another thing they did was to move the exhaust pipe down to get it away from the rider/passenger legs.

I have a '99 Road GLide with a ton of work to the motor, Including heads with large valves, and 10.5:1 comprssion ratio. It gets hot, but not as hot as the 2007 and newer. As they keep leaning out the engine, and now have added Oxy sensors to the exhausts, they keep running hotter and hotter. Another thing is that the 96 and 103 inch motors have a stroker crank (longer stroke) which also contributes to more heat due to more friction. My 99 has been increased to 95 inches, by increasing the bore, and keeping the stroke short like in the 88 inch. Makes for a quicker reving engine as well.

Sitting in traffic, like when we run down to DC for Rolling Thunder, or our local Vet Day Parade, it gets so hot that it just shuts off some times. That is one of the main reasons I started running full Syn Oil in the HD.  

IMHO, my HD gets a lot hotter than my Valk. But then again, mine is an '01 IS, and I know that the radiator pods deflect a lot of heat away from me, that with a STD or Tourer finds a way to reach the rider much more directly.

YRMV

I think that the days of the Air Cooled engines are numbered. Not just for emmissions, but also for noise polution. It is a well known fact that the Air cooled engines run larger clearances due to more thermal expansion than Liquid cooled, and that adds to noise as well. There are a TON of reasons why the AC engines are doomed!

Edited: Added more content by Valkahuna

The shut down is achieved on the rear cylinder when you roll the wireless throtte forward, and on later ones it did it automatically

with a download from the dealer,

but most everyone that got the download ,,,,came back and had it reversed.

Cylinder not fireing was too weird I guess.

[fudgie]

The 04 Ultra I rode was way to hot for me. From the yard to the garage it was hot. Rode it from town home, 15 miles, and my pants were very warm. It did have the lowers on but it was 65 deg that night. It wasnt the engine but rather the exhaust that came up to the seat. My other HD bud buys/makes a cross over pc that eliminates the pipe up that high. Cant say I ever complained about the heat from the Valk.

Coffee burns - 3rd degree? That is a stretch. 3rd deg is also full thickness burns which I can say I have never seen caused due to a liquid. Most resualt in amputations because tissue and muscle are dead.

Burns to the skin continue to burn for 3 days after the incident.