Final Drive Rebuild

[heavyd]

I had some time coming up that I wouldn't be able to ride due to Lasik eye surgery, so it seemed like a good time to do so long overdue maintenance. The drive dampeners are the originals as far as I know, and they were way past due to be replaced.

Not a great starting point

I hope I can get these out


Oh, wow....



All Shiny and new


This was the unplanned part, waiting on parts to arrive now.


Also unplanned.... oops


Poor Valkyrie   :'(

[old2soon]

$$$$$$$$$ Ouch $$$$$$  RIDE SAFE.

[indybobm]

I have been through this myself. Looks like you will need to replace the rear wheel. The surface around the rear bearing should be a flat surface, not stepped as shown in the picture. My wheel was worn like this also, had to find a replacement. The ground off screws is a result of the drive flange wobbling, that is what took out the wheel.

[Chrisj CMA]

I have bad news for you........There was a concert of problems going on inside there.  So far you have fixed one, and are waiting to fix the second, unfortunately the third one is going to continue the bad music.  When the dampners got soft they allowed the flange to wobble around, that is what caused the gross wear of the splines and the grinding down of the dampner plate bolts and the hub that the flange sits on.  Now there is no way to get the new splines you are going to spend good money for to properly align becauce of the change in the wheel


You need a new rear wheel

[indybobm]

I would also like to mention that the metal inserts in the rubber dampers are probably no longer useable. Due to the wobbling of the drive flange, the holes are most likely egg-shaped. Be sure to order the one-piece encapsolated dampers used on later Valks and Interstates. They are actually less expensive and more durable. When you order them, be sure to talk to the person taking the order and make sure that he understatnds which ones you want. There are some inconsistancies between the parts fisches used by different HDL locations.

Here is the link to my 'dilemma'

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,39552.0.html

[Ricky-D]

In all past threads the damage to the bearing housing in the wheel and the locking plate bolt heads has been attributed to a missing thrust washer.

Now all of a  sudden it's because of bad dampers in the wheel.

I'm not convinced the dampers have had much to do with the damage.

And I would certainly try a few things before considering the wheel toast.

***

[bscrive]

My wheel looks like the same.  I just doubled up on the thrust washer to take up the space, you don't need a new wheel yet. 

Those splines though don't have much life left to them.  They look like they are over 50% worn.  I would look into a good used final drive or a rebuild the one you have.

[Chrisj CMA]

Theres only one way the flange "wobbled" enough to grind away at the dampner plate bolts and its because the rubber dampners were worn out enough to allow such unauthorized movement.  Yes you could put that back together with some extra thrust washers and it will run.....but Im sure it was running right before you took it apart.

New splines are more expensive than a new wheel, especially if you have to do it twice.  It doesnt take much mis-alignment for the teeth to wear faster than normal, and it would be pure luck for you to get proper alignment with that hub.

Those of us that have repaired this tragedy before know and will agree.....the only REAL fix is a new wheel......(unless you can get a shop to machine that hub flat and "square", install a new right side bearing, and then add some material (like a washer) back on to bring the hub up to the level of the bearing.  I think that type of machining would be more costly than a new wheel unless you can do it yourself

[heavyd]

I know that it was ran for awhile before I got it with no thrust washer, and all 3 of the O-rings missing, and I was attributing the final drive damage to that. I have new crown and pinion gears on the way, and a drive flange with very minor wear. I couldn't see any damage to the rim, it is smooth and flat, seems like a strange wear pattern to me from the flange wobbling. I see the step that was mentioned, but to my untrained eye it looks designed that way. The bike is a 97 if that makes any difference. When I get a chance I will take some close ups now that the grease and dirt is cleaned off the rim.

I got the new metal inserts for the rubber dampeners, I didn't know about the all in one upgrade until after I had ordered these parts.

This has been quite a learning experience....

[Chrisj CMA]

I know that it was ran for awhile before I got it with no thrust washer, and all 3 of the O-rings missing, and I was attributing the final drive damage to that. I have new crown and pinion gears on the way, and a drive flange with very minor wear. I couldn't see any damage to the rim, it is smooth and flat, seems like a strange wear pattern to me from the flange wobbling. I see the step that was mentioned, but to my untrained eye it looks designed that way. The bike is a 97 if that makes any difference. When I get a chance I will take some close ups now that the grease and dirt is cleaned off the rim.

I got the new metal inserts for the rubber dampeners, I didn't know about the all in one upgrade until after I had ordered these parts.

This has been quite a learning experience....

I believe if it was just a missing thrust washer the only risk would be to the outer face of the bearing, but if NO 0-rings were in there that would allow some wobble and that would cause more stress on the dampners and then it would be a big ugly spirial down until it looks like it looks.  That hub was not designed that way......if you choose to run it, at least you are going to need a new bearing there and then you will see just how much material is lost.  

This is a 97 as well.....compare the hub surface around the bearing


Listen here...I have nothing to gain by trying to "scare" you into spending more money than you have to, so Ill tell you a bit about myself

I am not a professional mechanic but four Valkyrie riders and my bike makes 5 in my local area bring their bikes to me to maintain the rear wheel and drive.  So I have seen quite a lot of splines and ruined parts over the years.  One buddy had the same catastrophe you did....Ok, Now I am not going to get into a pissing contest with anyone over this, there is no debate, I just happen to know about the Valkyrie rear drive, so you can take this or leave this.

The most critical aspect of a well running Valkyrie rear end is spline alignment.  Spline alignment is achieved only one way but depends on several constants to make the system work.  The constants are very accurately made parts that provide a consistant solid metal line from the axel head to the axel nut.  The line of pressure goes like this (in order):

Head of axel, casing of final drive, final drive spacer, right wheel bearing, wheel spacer, left bearing, left (exterior) spacer, brake caliper plate, left side swing arm and then torqued axel nut.  This axel nut must be torqued to 81ftlbs with the final drive loose on the swing arm so it can square itself onto the wheel, and that sqaring is achieved when all the parts in the torque line mate together.....

The flange is NOT part of the torqued line of pressure it simply relies of the wheel hub and THRUST washer to press it (at just the right pressure) against the inner face of the final drive thereby aligning the spline teeth properly.  Since your hub and right bearing has lost (ground off) some metal the thing is too short to properly hold the flange where it needs to be to achieve the right lash...therefore it almost certainly will wear at an excelerated rate

You can put it back together like this, and then in a few thousand miles wonder why the splines are wearing out fast or you can correct the whole problem.

And, BTW I am reposting the picture you put up of the dampners.  See how the rubber is stressed so the metal part is not tight or even touching the edges of the hole that is supposed to hold it.  If you didnt replace the rubber (just the metal) you are in for continued slop in those dampners....the rubber is toast my friend

[heavyd]

ouch....

Just to clarify, I replaced the rubber dampeners, the metal bushings, and whatever that metal plate is called that holds it all in place.

Looks like I should start looking for a new rear wheel. Makes me want to have a long unpleasant talk with the previous owner.....except it was my father and he died in December. A nice mess he has left me with.

[Chrisj CMA]

ouch....

Just to clarify, I replaced the rubber dampeners, the metal bushings, and whatever that metal plate is called that holds it all in place.

Looks like I should start looking for a new rear wheel. Makes me want to have a long unpleasant talk with the previous owner.....except it was my father and he died in December. A nice mess he has left me with.

Sorry about your Dad.....Im sure he didnt know......thats the biggest problem I run into, owners just dont know how much it matters.  You did good so far by getting all new dampners and final drive.  If you get a new wheel it should only be 150 bucks or so for a decent one and then you can get the bike running like its supposed to and have nothing to worry about

[heavyd]

Anyone know of a place in Canada I might find a good used wheel? Shipping from the us to PEI is usually pretty brutal, and I have already dumped $1000 into parts and tools so far this year. I seem to remember hearing that Honda doesn't make this rim anymore, any truth to that?

[Novavalker]

Your best bet is Ebay for wheels (pinwall).
Don't buy parts from the dealer. Go to HDL Direct.

[Momz]

I have a friend that works at a HD dealer.
He has never replaced an O-ring, cleaned/lubed splines, properly torqued the axel or drive unit.
He simply sells his Valks (he's had a few). So there are probably more Valks out there with worn out drivelines than you can imagine.

Everytime I run across a Valk rider, I ask if they are VRCC members. Most have never heard of the VRCC, so buying a good wheel or drive unit is going to get more and more difficult.

[etiwandablues]

I'm getting nervous after reading this thread. I just pulled my rear wheel last week and lubed the splines on my 03 std for the first time at ~19k miles. The splines looked fine & still had some lube but not a lot. Also replaced the O rings, thrust washer & dust seal. I noticed a little rubber dust on the drive from the wheel dampers but didn't think too much about it at the time. The rubber dampers all had a little free play or wiggle room back & forth. Are they supposed to fit snug with no free play? I assume yes and I need to replace them. What would be the cause for them wearing this much at this mileage?

Are there any part numbers anywhere to go with the microfiche on the Shop Talk page? Thanks

[heavyd]

Possible good news for me. A friend of a friend is a machinest at an aircraft company. He is going to look at the wheel this weekend, but he thinks he can build it up and mill it back down based on the pictures. I will let everyone know the outcome. Thanks for the info

[heavyd]

It occurred to me at about 4AM this morning that in order to rebuild the rim to spec he is going to need some very precise measurements and I have no idea where to get them. Anyone know where I could get the measurements for him?

[Chrisj CMA]

It occurred to me at about 4AM this morning that in order to rebuild the rim to spec he is going to need some very precise measurements and I have no idea where to get them. Anyone know where I could get the measurements for him?

You dont need measurements.....Install a new right side bearing and the bearing is the measurement

Plus....look carefully, if the inner race of the old beaing hs not been damaged....then once the wheel is squared up in whatever jig hes going to use to mill it......and before removing the old bearing he can take a measurement from the inner race to new milled surface to know how much material to add back.  If the inner race is damaged, then that measurement will have to be made with the new bearing.  But the hub needs to be absolutely flush with the outer race of the bearing, then the thrust washer maintains seperation between the bearing and flange

If the inner race is useable for the measurement but the bearing has to be removed for the milling, then I suggest hit the outer perimeter of the bearing with a grinder (OLD BEARING) so it can be reinserted into the bearing seat without driving and pulling to save wear and tear on the bearing seat surfaces

[quexpress]

Anyone know of a place in Canada I might find a good used wheel? Shipping from the us to PEI is usually pretty brutal, and I have already dumped $1000 into parts and tools so far this year. I seem to remember hearing that Honda doesn't make this rim anymore, any truth to that?

I'm in the Montreal area and have an extra set of wheels.
Hopefully your machinist friend will be able to fix your wheel.
If not, you can contact me with a PM or email.
Normand 

[indybobm]

Possible good news for me. A friend of a friend is a machinest at an aircraft company. He is going to look at the wheel this weekend, but he thinks he can build it up and mill it back down based on the pictures. I will let everyone know the outcome. Thanks for the info

You could get the precise measurements from a good wheel. Just remember that if the surface is not absolutely square with the wheel, it will put the drive flange at an angle. A milling machine should prevent this. The important dimension is from the bottom of the bearing cavity to the surface of the wheel flange and the diameter of the flange. If the machinist can do this, I'm sure there are a number of people interested in the cost. This could start up a little business for him if the price (and outcome) is right.

[Ricky-D]

The individual rubber dampers that are in the rear wheel will necessarily be loosely fitted.

This is to allow for manufacturing tolerances with all the different parts that come together in the final assembly.

When the "drive flange" is inserted into the dampers it becomes a more solid unit.

The picture of the dampers, is showing dampers that are at the extreme end of the condition curve.

Normally the play between the dampers and the wheel with the drive flange is very minimally felt.

The "play" felt in most cases is a cumulative effect of the transmission, drive train and flange spline slop.  Dampers are a very small fraction of the total looseness.

***

[hubcapsc]

The individual rubber dampers that are in the rear wheel will necessarily be loosely fitted.

This is to allow for manufacturing tolerances with all the different parts that come together in the final assembly.

When the "drive flange" is inserted into the dampers it becomes a more solid unit.

The picture of the dampers, is showing dampers that are at the extreme end of the condition curve.

Normally the play between the dampers and the wheel with the drive flange is very minimally felt.

The "play" felt in most cases is a cumulative effect of the transmission, drive train and flange spline slop.  Dampers are a very small fraction of the total looseness.

***

New dampers are so tight they won't hardly go in... I use rubbing alcohol to help lube them
in.

It doesn't take too long for them to get a little loose, so being a little loose != worn out.

When you replace loose ones, you can feel the difference in rear-end slop...

These are worn slap way out...



-Mike

[Chrisj CMA]

The individual rubber dampers that are in the rear wheel will necessarily be loosely fitted.

This is to allow for manufacturing tolerances with all the different parts that come together in the final assembly.

When the "drive flange" is inserted into the dampers it becomes a more solid unit.

The picture of the dampers, is showing dampers that are at the extreme end of the condition curve.

Normally the play between the dampers and the wheel with the drive flange is very minimally felt.

The "play" felt in most cases is a cumulative effect of the transmission, drive train and flange spline slop.  Dampers are a very small fraction of the total looseness.

***

New dampers are so tight they won't hardly go in... I use rubbing alcohol to help lube them
in.

It doesn't take too long for them to get a little loose, so being a little loose != worn out.

When you replace loose ones, you can feel the difference in rear-end slop...

These are worn slap way out...



-Mike

Mike, next time, let the dampners sleep overnight in the freezer......they pop in like butter and the plate goes on easier.

Jeff

[hubcapsc]

Mike, next time, let the dampners sleep overnight in the freezer......they pop in like butter and the plate goes on easier.

I changed my rear wheel bearings when my bike was new-to-me... I put them in the freezer...
I was in such a rush to get the bearings in while they were still frozen, I forgot to put
the distance spacer in   

-Mike

[quexpress]

I changed my rear wheel bearings when my bike was new-to-me... I put them in the freezer...
I was in such a rush to get the bearings in while they were still frozen, I forgot to put
the distance spacer in   

-Mike

I've been there too ... 

[heavyd]

Tearing my newly reassembled wheel apart again to go to the machine shop. Getting that bearing out was a miserable PITA.



Could have sworn I already cleaned this, guess it is time to get the wire brush out again. It really shows how much is worn down. Rough measurement with the bearing out shows that there is approx .125" missing.



To the best of my knowledge this bearing hasn't been replaced in the 6 years(60k) since my father bought the bike which leaves me confused. How does the hub get worn down with barely a scratch on the bearing?

[Ricky-D]

All you have to do is look at the drive flange and see how it joins up with the wheel.

It becomes pretty clear how important the thrust washer is in preventing this kind of damage.

I would try adapting some kind of .125 thickness spacer there to fill up the worn down space.

That is a double row bearing right there and there is still plenty of wheel to hold it securely when the axle is properly tightened.

All you are looking for is to keep the drive flange in the proper distance relationship with the wheel.

I would not let this keep me from using the wheel, I would still keep looking for another wheel but not let it stop me from riding.

***

[Chrisj CMA]

All you have to do is look at the drive flange and see how it joins up with the wheel.

It becomes pretty clear how important the thrust washer is in preventing this kind of damage.

I would try adapting some kind of .125 thickness spacer there to fill up the worn down space.

That is a double row bearing right there and there is still plenty of wheel to hold it securely when the axle is properly tightened.

All you are looking for is to keep the drive flange in the proper distance relationship with the wheel.

I would not let this keep me from using the wheel, I would still keep looking for another wheel but not let it stop me from riding.

***

Ricky....Id agree with you if two other things were true (they arent true)

1.  If the old splines were still usable for a time.  Then sure go for it until all the new parts come in

2.  If the surface of that bearing and the surrounding hub was flat and square and all that was needed was a spacer.

Since neither is true It would be a crime to put brand new splines in there and then try to get parts that arent square or flat to take a stab at getting that flange right.......all he would do is get a couple months of riding in and then have trashed splines again

[gordonv]

I have a removed spare rear rim that has no bearings in it and has been powder coated. I could measure it up, but I need to find something that would measure good enough to be of use for you.

If the bearing is flush to the rim, then all you would have to do is look up the dimensions of the bearing online, all the information is there.

[heavyd]

Got my rim back from the machinist today and everything looks like it should fit but I am waiting on my new bearing to put it back together. My mechanic called, he had to order new seals that he found bad when he was putting in the crown and pinion gears. That's fine, the seals arrived yesterday and he was going to put it together today. Turns out there is a split bearing in there that also needs to be replaced. Says he has never replaced one before but it looks like there was an additive in the gear oil that was deteriorating the seals. I have no idea what kind of gear oil it is, something my father had for it, it's in a sprite bottle with 80-90 gear wrote on it. The only thing I have ever been near that smelled this bad was crude oil. Anyone ever heard of anything like this?

I will try to get some pics of the rim tomorrow.

[indybobm]

Looking forward to seeings the pics of the repaired wheel. It would be nice to know what it cost and if he would be willing to repair similiar damaged wheels.

[heavyd]

Got my final drive back from the mechanic tonight, and he forgot to move the oring holder (part 14) over to the new gears.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/www.cheapcycleparts.com/images/manual/production/assembly_images/12352/large/MZ04F1500.png?1336601745
Does anyone know hos to get this out? I have read through the final drive section of the service manual and I can't find any mention of it. I would love to be able to move it over to the new gear tonight so I can put it together to ride tomorrow. Thanks

[heavyd]

Just found this forum post when I was searching from google, looks like it won't be coming apart tonight...

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php?topic=36509.0

[heavyd]

Forgot to take some pictures before I put the bearing back in, sorry.










It is all back together and riding like a new bike now. No smash going into second gear anymore, but if I let the clutch out too quick in 3rd or 4th I can feel the whole bike lift just a little. I have Cobra 6x6 pipes, and I normally have beetle bags on but I had them off yesterday so I could watch for leaks. Sounds like a totally different bike without the bags blocking the sound. Gave it a quick shot up to 160km and I checked the mirror cause it sounded like my Dragon was blowing flames.