FINALLY, a well dressed Wal Mart shopper!!

[SANDMAN5]

[MarkT]

Funny, but is that really The Evil Empire?  The reason I ask is, I don't see the smiley on the shelves or in the background, and I suspect WM would have a fit if they saw OC in their stores.  Of course I'm not sure what they look like inside, I never go in there.  In any case, good for the milf in the pic - that's a big un for such a little woman.  I'm guessing she's a firearms instructor or the like to carry what looks to be a 1911 pattern .45.  On the other hand, and looking closer, top firearms people generally prefer to carry single action autos in Condition One - I do - so I question her skill / experience.  The belt is totally inadequate to support such a big carry, with any comfort or security, for any length of time longer than just for a photo op. Not easy to draw as high as she carries, not to mention her topside equipment getting in the way.  Maybe she's just posing for the picture.  Looks like she's posing, resting her hand on the shelf rather than reaching for something, and the other arm laid down her leg, not being used to actively help the other hand, or passing things into the cart.  Also look at her eyes and expression - not appropriate if she was actually shopping.  I conclude, posed.  Given her body language, if I was a perp with evil designs on her, the piece wouldn't stop me.  I doubt she could do anything with it in time to save herself, and I'm pretty sure I could take it away from her in a heartbeat, unless she's a black belt.  And if she's that, what does she need the gun for?

[X Ring]

Saw this on another forum and questioned her mode of carry also.  Was explained in several states open carry requires the firearm to be unloaded.  Like MarkT I would never carry a 1911 in any condition other than Condition 1.

Marty

[Gavin_Sons]

Whats the point of carrying a gun unloaded? Might as well not carry one. Hold on mr rapist i have to go get my bullets before you have your way with me.

[Patrick]

The firearm has to be unloaded ??!!  What state would do that ?? Thats the height of stupidity..

[SANDMAN5]

I didn't think it was Wally World either. More of a play on the
"People of Wal Mart" website than anything. Also I didn't know
about the "unloaded carry" either. What's the use?

[MacDragon]

Looks like a grocery store..  I see what looks to be a badge holster on the other side of her belt.  And she's reaching for the donuts...

[BigAl]

I like  it a lot.

[Steve K (IA)]

The first and maybe last person who walked into our local WalMart with a gun strapped to his leg, was horse laughed out of the place by the customers.   

I know that the customer base looks pretty scary after 10 pm in our WalMart.  Scary, but not to be "afraid" of.   

[Hoser]

In open carry states it is legal to carry a firearm loaded.  I could do that at WW here, but I prefer concealed. Most do.  She also may be a cop, if she has a badge.  Hoser

[Clark]

Funny, but is that really The Evil Empire?  The reason I ask is, I don't see the smiley on the shelves or in the background, and I suspect WM would have a fit if they saw OC in their stores.  Of course I'm not sure what they look like inside, I never go in there.  In any case, good for the milf in the pic - that's a big un for such a little woman.  I'm guessing she's a firearms instructor or the like to carry what looks to be a 1911 pattern .45.  On the other hand, and looking closer, top firearms people generally prefer to carry single action autos in Condition One - I do - so I question her skill / experience.  The belt is totally inadequate to support such a big carry, with any comfort or security, for any length of time longer than just for a photo op. Not easy to draw as high as she carries, not to mention her topside equipment getting in the way.  Maybe she's just posing for the picture.  Looks like she's posing, resting her hand on the shelf rather than reaching for something, and the other arm laid down her leg, not being used to actively help the other hand, or passing things into the cart.  Also look at her eyes and expression - not appropriate if she was actually shopping.  I conclude, posed.  Given her body language, if I was a perp with evil designs on her, the piece wouldn't stop me.  I doubt she could do anything with it in time to save herself, and I'm pretty sure I could take it away from her in a heartbeat, unless she's a black belt.  And if she's that, what does she need the gun for?

I'm always carrying in this same situation, either a Glock .40 or a Colt .45 - and no one knows it, it's covered.  And without a dumb smiley expression, holding on to a shelf.

"milf"  REALLY????

[fudgie]

Cali comes to mind when you oc and have to have the gun unloaded. You can carry the clips loaded on your side just not in the gun.

I see nothing wrong with her stance. Most OC 'rest' their arm on or behind the firearm. Its a defensive method for all those times when guns get taken out of there holsters by the enemies.   I always keep my gun arm free.

I open carry in Wal mart all the time. Only time I was hassled was when it was conceled. He saw my baby bump.  

[MarkT]

Funny, but is that really The Evil Empire?  The reason I ask is, I don't see the smiley on the shelves or in the background, and I suspect WM would have a fit if they saw OC in their stores.  Of course I'm not sure what they look like inside, I never go in there.  In any case, good for the milf in the pic - that's a big un for such a little woman.  I'm guessing she's a firearms instructor or the like to carry what looks to be a 1911 pattern .45.  On the other hand, and looking closer, top firearms people generally prefer to carry single action autos in Condition One - I do - so I question her skill / experience.  The belt is totally inadequate to support such a big carry, with any comfort or security, for any length of time longer than just for a photo op. Not easy to draw as high as she carries, not to mention her topside equipment getting in the way.  Maybe she's just posing for the picture.  Looks like she's posing, resting her hand on the shelf rather than reaching for something, and the other arm laid down her leg, not being used to actively help the other hand, or passing things into the cart.  Also look at her eyes and expression - not appropriate if she was actually shopping.  I conclude, posed.  Given her body language, if I was a perp with evil designs on her, the piece wouldn't stop me.  I doubt she could do anything with it in time to save herself, and I'm pretty sure I could take it away from her in a heartbeat, unless she's a black belt.  And if she's that, what does she need the gun for?

"milf"  REALLY????

Yeah, I'd hit that.  And wouldn't wait until closing time either.  I'd bet she could teach even YOU, Mr Brad Pitt, a thing or two.  Turn the lights out if it bothers you.  Or put the bag over YOUR head.   The more she ISN'T Angelina Jolie, it means she has to work harder than the babes who get a pass just on their packaging.  In the dark - that's what counts.  

[Jess Tolbirt]

a woman after my own heart!!

[Jess Tolbirt]

or put a flag over her and go for Old Glory!!!!!

[fudgie]

or put a flag over her and go for Old Glory!!!!!

Oh boy here we go with another flag desicration thread. 

[Momz]

Any woman that OCs and doesn't weigh a ton is a "MILF" in my world.

[Serk]

• Pretty sure that's not a Wal Mart
• I'd wager that's a GILF, not a MILF
• I choose not to open carry (even if I could, which sadly enough in Texas I can not), but I also choose to wear a helmet while riding, and respect the decision of those who don't wear a helmet just as I respect the decision of those who open carry.
  
• Carrying a 1911 style pistol with the hammer down does seem very odd to me

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

I like to see open carry, in particular with women. Sorry but women look even better with guns, I don't care if it's more or less practical. I just like it. 

Series 80 1911's are considered safe to carry hammer down on a loaded chamber. At least that's my take on it. The series 80 1911's have a trigger activated firing pin block which prevents the firing pin from contacting the primer unless the trigger is pulled.

I know mine works, I mis-assembled it once and though the hammer would fall normally when I pulled the trigger the gun wouldn't go off. Was kind of embarrassing since it happened while shooting with buds at the range.

I think what's considered less than safe about it is that you have to manually rooster and let down the hammer.

[MarkT]

from http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm


The Conditions of Readiness

The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the “Condition” system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. They are:

    * Condition 0 – A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
    * Condition 1 – Also known as “cocked and locked,” means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
    * Condition 2 – A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
    * Condition 3 – The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
    * Condition 4 – The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

The mode of readiness preferred by the experts is Condition One. Generally speaking, Condition One offers the best balance of readiness and safety. Its biggest drawback is that it looks scary to people who don’t understand the operation and safety features of the pistol.

Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.

Condition Three adds a degree of “insurance” against an accidental discharge since there is no round in the chamber. To bring the gun into action from the holster, the pistol must be drawn and the slide racked as the pistol is brought to bear on the target. This draw is usually called “the Israeli draw” since it was taught by Israeli security and defense forces. Some of the real expert trainers can do an Israeli draw faster than most of us can do a simple draw, but for most of us, the Israeli draw adds a degree of complexity, an extra step, and an opening for mistakes in the process of getting the front sight onto the target.

Using the “half-rooster” as a safety

The half-rooster notch on the M1911 is really intended as a “fail-safe” and is not recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII:

When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it “half cocks” and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldn’t use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released.

Again, the half-rooster is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with “Series 80″ type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-rooster when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-rooster might be an option.

For more detailed discussion of the safety and internal functions of the M1911, see “Is Cocked and Locked Dangerous?”


from from http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm

Is “Cocked and Locked” Dangerous?

Cocked and Locked 1911

By Syd

Q: The one and only problem I’ve ever had with the classic 1911 is having to carry “cocked & locked.” In your opinion, are the double action only models offered by Para-Ordnance the way to go when safety is concerned?

There are really two parts to your question so I’ll deal with them separately.

First, yes the P-O LDA is an excellent option when the cocked and locked 1911 is a problem. Charles Riggs wrote a nice article for me on the LDA which addresses this:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/para-ord-745.htm

Second, I believe that the concern about the safety of the “cocked and locked” (condition 1) pistol is more a matter of perceptions than reality. It looks scary. When you’re new to the 1911, it feels scary. I started out with wheel guns and it took me some time to get used to cocked and locked. But, given the huge number of M1911 pistols which are out there in service, you would think that we would hear more about accidental discharges if this were a problem. The fact is that we don’t because they don’t go off by themselves. I have only heard one story from one police officer who claimed one went off in his holster when it bumped against a banister as he descended a set of stairs, but when I pushed him for details, he refused to say anything more. He wouldn’t tell me the kind of holster, if the gun had been modified, its state of repair or any other circumstances. This led me to believe that he was either blowing smoke or there was something about the gun he didn’t want to tell me.

Safety On 1911

What do we mean by “cocked and locked”? The M1911 pistol is loaded by inserting a charged magazine and racking the slide. This action chambers a cartridge and cocks the hammer of the pistol. The thumb safety is then pushed up toward the sight. This “locks” the pistol. The safety is on and the slide will not move. Inside the gun, a piece of the safety rotates (red area in diagram) and blocks the base of the sear which prevents the sear from releasing the hammer. If the sear hook on the hammer were to break, the sear would be captured by the half-rooster notch preventing an accidental discharge. The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.

But what about the cocked and locked pistol taking a hard hit on the hammer? Could it go off then? Listen to this report from Terry Erwin:

“About ten years ago, I was working as an armed-plain clothed-security officer. During a struggle with an arrested subject the Combat Commander I was carrying cocked and locked, holstered in a Bianchi “Pancake” on my strong side hip, struck the center door jam of a set of double doors. The center door jam was knocked loose, and two belt loops were torn off of my jeans. The hammer was bent inward and the safety would not move. A gunsmith had to press out the safety, hammer pin, and sear pin. The edge of the sear had cracked off, and a piece of one hammer hook also cracked off. The gun did not discharge upon that impact. I have carried several Colt’s, including that repaired Commander for most of my adult life, and have never once worried about the weapon (myself or someone else is a different story, but not the gun).”

The 1911 is a single action semi-automatic pistol so it has to be cocked in order to fire. People deal with this in one of three ways: cocked and locked (condition 1), or they chamber a round and carefully lower the hammer (condition 2) so they have to thumb rooster the gun to fire it, or they carry it with an empty chamber and rack the slide when they bring it into action (condition 3). I would advise either condition 1 or 3 for home defense, but not condition 2. I don’t advise condition 2 under any circumstances. (For more discussion on the conditions see “The Conditions of Readiness”) If you are only using the gun for home defense, there is nothing wrong with leaving it in condition 3 with a loaded magazine but with an empty chamber – as long as you have the presence of mind to load the weapon under stress. (Don’t give me a “duh” on that one because weird things happen to one’s mind when someone is trying to get into your house at 3 AM).

When the gun is cocked and locked, the sear is blocked from releasing the hammer. Further, unless a firing grip is on the pistol, thumb safety swept off, and the trigger is pulled, the gun will not go off. For my money, this is much safer than a Glock or some of the other new pistol designs which have no external safety. The Glock, by the way, is also pre-cocked which is why it can have a much lighter trigger than a real double action gun. It could be said that the Glock is “cocked and unlocked” which is called “condition zero” with the M1911. Anecdotally, we hear of many more “accidental discharges” with Glocks than with M1911 pattern guns. The 1911 has two manual safeties. It may look scary, but it is really much safer than many current designs.

If an M1911 has been butchered internally, all bets are off, and I have seen a couple like that. But if the gun is in good repair, it is safe and will not go off unless the thumb safety is swept off, a firing grip is on the handle, and the trigger is pulled. If you buy a used M1911 pattern pistol, be sure to have it checked out by a competent gunsmith just to insure that the gun has not been modified or made dangerous by a tinkerer and that it is in good working order.

A sideline: of the pistols I have carried, the M1911 is the only one I carry with the safeties engaged. I carry S&W and Beretta DA/SA guns with the safety off. Glocks and wheel guns don’t have a safety at all (and no, I don’t consider the trigger flange on the Glock a real manual safety). In this respect, the cocked and locked M1911 is the safest pistol. It is unique in the fact that it has not one but two manual safeties which have to be acted upon to make the gun fire.

Now, to argue the other direction for just a second, do I feel safer with a true DA/SA with a firing pin block and a manual safety like a S&W or Beretta? Yes, in an absolute sense, I do when I’m in the world of theoretical possibilities, but again, I think this is more a matter of feeling than reality. Some weird combination of events could conspire to take the safety off, push down the grip safety and pull the trigger all at the same time, but I can’t visualize what that circumstance would be. Nevertheless, when I’m backpacking and I know the gun may have to ride in my backpack and flop around in a tent with me, I will often carry a S&W DA/SA just because some of these strange possibilities come to mind. For the purposes for which a gun is needed, I feel safer with the M1911 because I know I’m going to shoot it better and faster than these other options.

I have seen “accidental discharges” with M1911′s, but without exception they have been instances in which the finger was on the trigger or the fire control group had been modified by an incompetent. I have yet to document a single case in which an M1911 simply experienced a catastrophic failure and went off while cocked and locked. And I do hunt for such stories because this is a concern for a lot of people.

Another interesting “safety feature” of the M1911 was first observed by Massad Ayoob. In the event that a bad guy might get your gun away from you, confusion about the controls of the cocked and locked M1911 could cause him enough hesitation to give you a chance to either get the gun back or flee. The current generation of thugs have cut their teeth on double action semi-autos and revolvers and many do not know how the M1911 operates. Ayoob tested this with people who were unfamiliar with pistols by giving them unloaded pistols of various designs and measuring how long it took them to figure out the controls and make the hammer drop. The M1911 proved to be considerably slower to fire than double action guns in the hands of those who are unfamiliar with the gun.

Q: Is the cocked and locked M1911 a problem for people who are new to firearms and want to keep one for home defense?

In my opinion, cocked and locked does not present either a safety or handling problem. In fact, I would be inclined to argue the other way, that it is very intuitive and simple, and very quickly brought into action. 90 years of successful service tends to bear this out. All you have to do is to sweep the thumb safety down with your thumb and the gun is ready to fire. It is a natural motion and people learn it quickly.

Other issues come into play when you’re considering keeping an 1911 loaded for home defense, such as if you have small children in the home and how much access your friends have to your home, but there is nothing inherently dangerous with having a cocked an locked gun at the ready. If you have really small children who are too young to train on firearms safety, then condition 3 – empty chamber – is definitely the way to go because the child will not know to rack the slide to load it and they will lack the strength in their hands and arms to do it. If you are a very social person who has a lot of parties and people running through your house all the time, then you really should wear it, concealed of course, so that the pistol is under your immediate control and you don’t have to worry about someone finding it and doing something stupid. If that’s not possible, lock it up or find a smarter circle of friends who won’t go through your stuff when you’re not looking.

Finally, the real cure for cocked and locked anxiety is to get “un-new” to the gun. Shoot it, get used to it, learn it so that you don’t have to think about it. Familiarity will dispel that anxiety. Get some training if at all possible. Pistols really require some training and practice to use effectively. A good training session with a qualified professional trainer will help to separate the fact from the fantasy about what you can actually do with your pistol when the chips are down.

I feel that the 1911 is the fastest, best shooting pistol which has ever been built, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t some other good designs out there. You should be comfortable with your gun, and if you just can’t get over that fear about the cocked hammer, find another gun that feels good to you. I love the 1911 because of the way it shoots, but I had some nervousness with them when I was new to them. Practice and familiarity made it go away.

“Due to misplaced concerns about safety and liability, the police have shunned the Condition One (Cocked and Locked) SA auto, mostly in favor of DA autos that aren’t any easier to use than a DA revolver. Claims that the SA auto is unsafe or requires special training are hogwash, something that too many people accept without challenge. And if you don’t believe it, come see me at any CTASAA course and I’ll prove it to you.” – Chuck Taylor

[amazngrace]

Regarding the Glock and safety, the biggest problem is that in order to disassemble,
the trigger must be pulled with the slide in battery.
That, coupled with the short fairly light pull will lead to a fairly large
number of "unintentional discharge" incidents among the poorly trained
and the less than careful users.
Police instructors quit calling it "accidental" several years ago in the hope that
officers would better understand that there is no excuse not to handle the weapon with
care at all times.

..ED

[T.P.]

Oh boy here we go with another flag desicration thread.  


I thought we had already started that with an armed white women, looking for some white bread.  

[fudgie]

Yep, OC is nice if you want to push awareness and 2nd amendment rights.  Not so good if you actually want to protect yourself and others. There goes the advantage of surprise.  And makes you the first target if there is a perp about to commit mayhem. Not to mention  someone jumping you from your blindside and taking it away. 

I always liked reading your posts and agree with most things you say but disagree with this one. The ones who come up with these myths are cc'ers and never OC. Same as for myths about CC. Most I dont agree with because I also cc. Jump over to www.opencarry.org and you will be highly enlightened. 

[fudgie]

Thats cool, markt. I guess mine is condition 2 but its not a 1911. My (sometimes primary) BUG is #3 only due to the amout of work space I encounter and the things that happen in it. 

[fudgie]

I like to see open carry, in particular with women. Sorry but women look even better with guns, I don't care if it's more or less practical. I just like it. 

I agree.  I chub up everytime kit comes home with it on her hip. 

[X Ring]

Regarding the Glock and safety, the biggest problem is that in order to disassemble,
the trigger must be pulled with the slide in battery.
That, coupled with the short fairly light pull will lead to a fairly large
number of "unintentional discharge" incidents among the poorly trained
and the less than careful users.
Police instructors quit calling it "accidental" several years ago in the hope that
officers would better understand that there is no excuse not to handle the weapon with
care at all times.

..ED

The biggest problem with Glocks aren't the disassembly procedures.  It's the knuckleheads failing to properly unload the weapon BEFORE taking it apart.  The trigger pull can't be described as short and light when it is approximately the same as it takes to fire a 1911.  We firearms instructors refer to unintentional discharges as Negligent Discharges because someone was negligent in their weapons handling.

Marty

[pBrain]

Don't you hate it when you post something on a forum, just to get a laugh or add some humor and all the "experts" chime in and rip it apart on technicalities?

For the record....  I love the picture and the reference to Wal-Mart....  I definitely got a chuckle out of it.

[Raverez]

More like a gilf?

[X Ring]

More like a gilf?

Grandmother instead of mother.

Marty

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

from http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm


The Conditions of Readiness

The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the “Condition” system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. They are:

    * Condition 0 – A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
    * Condition 1 – Also known as “cocked and locked,” means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
    * Condition 2 – A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
    * Condition 3 – The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
    * Condition 4 – The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.

The mode of readiness preferred by the experts is Condition One. Generally speaking, Condition One offers the best balance of readiness and safety. Its biggest drawback is that it looks scary to people who don’t understand the operation and safety features of the pistol.

Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.

Condition Three adds a degree of “insurance” against an accidental discharge since there is no round in the chamber. To bring the gun into action from the holster, the pistol must be drawn and the slide racked as the pistol is brought to bear on the target. This draw is usually called “the Israeli draw” since it was taught by Israeli security and defense forces. Some of the real expert trainers can do an Israeli draw faster than most of us can do a simple draw, but for most of us, the Israeli draw adds a degree of complexity, an extra step, and an opening for mistakes in the process of getting the front sight onto the target.

Using the “half-rooster” as a safety

The half-rooster notch on the M1911 is really intended as a “fail-safe” and is not recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII:

When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it “half cocks” and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldn’t use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released.

Again, the half-rooster is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with “Series 80″ type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-rooster when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-rooster might be an option.

For more detailed discussion of the safety and internal functions of the M1911, see “Is Cocked and Locked Dangerous?”


from from http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm

Is “Cocked and Locked” Dangerous?

Cocked and Locked 1911

By Syd

Q: The one and only problem I’ve ever had with the classic 1911 is having to carry “cocked & locked.” In your opinion, are the double action only models offered by Para-Ordnance the way to go when safety is concerned?

There are really two parts to your question so I’ll deal with them separately.

First, yes the P-O LDA is an excellent option when the cocked and locked 1911 is a problem. Charles Riggs wrote a nice article for me on the LDA which addresses this:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/para-ord-745.htm

Second, I believe that the concern about the safety of the “cocked and locked” (condition 1) pistol is more a matter of perceptions than reality. It looks scary. When you’re new to the 1911, it feels scary. I started out with wheel guns and it took me some time to get used to cocked and locked. But, given the huge number of M1911 pistols which are out there in service, you would think that we would hear more about accidental discharges if this were a problem. The fact is that we don’t because they don’t go off by themselves. I have only heard one story from one police officer who claimed one went off in his holster when it bumped against a banister as he descended a set of stairs, but when I pushed him for details, he refused to say anything more. He wouldn’t tell me the kind of holster, if the gun had been modified, its state of repair or any other circumstances. This led me to believe that he was either blowing smoke or there was something about the gun he didn’t want to tell me.

Safety On 1911

What do we mean by “cocked and locked”? The M1911 pistol is loaded by inserting a charged magazine and racking the slide. This action chambers a cartridge and cocks the hammer of the pistol. The thumb safety is then pushed up toward the sight. This “locks” the pistol. The safety is on and the slide will not move. Inside the gun, a piece of the safety rotates (red area in diagram) and blocks the base of the sear which prevents the sear from releasing the hammer. If the sear hook on the hammer were to break, the sear would be captured by the half-rooster notch preventing an accidental discharge. The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.

But what about the cocked and locked pistol taking a hard hit on the hammer? Could it go off then? Listen to this report from Terry Erwin:

“About ten years ago, I was working as an armed-plain clothed-security officer. During a struggle with an arrested subject the Combat Commander I was carrying cocked and locked, holstered in a Bianchi “Pancake” on my strong side hip, struck the center door jam of a set of double doors. The center door jam was knocked loose, and two belt loops were torn off of my jeans. The hammer was bent inward and the safety would not move. A gunsmith had to press out the safety, hammer pin, and sear pin. The edge of the sear had cracked off, and a piece of one hammer hook also cracked off. The gun did not discharge upon that impact. I have carried several Colt’s, including that repaired Commander for most of my adult life, and have never once worried about the weapon (myself or someone else is a different story, but not the gun).”

The 1911 is a single action semi-automatic pistol so it has to be cocked in order to fire. People deal with this in one of three ways: cocked and locked (condition 1), or they chamber a round and carefully lower the hammer (condition 2) so they have to thumb rooster the gun to fire it, or they carry it with an empty chamber and rack the slide when they bring it into action (condition 3). I would advise either condition 1 or 3 for home defense, but not condition 2. I don’t advise condition 2 under any circumstances. (For more discussion on the conditions see “The Conditions of Readiness”) If you are only using the gun for home defense, there is nothing wrong with leaving it in condition 3 with a loaded magazine but with an empty chamber – as long as you have the presence of mind to load the weapon under stress. (Don’t give me a “duh” on that one because weird things happen to one’s mind when someone is trying to get into your house at 3 AM).

When the gun is cocked and locked, the sear is blocked from releasing the hammer. Further, unless a firing grip is on the pistol, thumb safety swept off, and the trigger is pulled, the gun will not go off. For my money, this is much safer than a Glock or some of the other new pistol designs which have no external safety. The Glock, by the way, is also pre-cocked which is why it can have a much lighter trigger than a real double action gun. It could be said that the Glock is “cocked and unlocked” which is called “condition zero” with the M1911. Anecdotally, we hear of many more “accidental discharges” with Glocks than with M1911 pattern guns. The 1911 has two manual safeties. It may look scary, but it is really much safer than many current designs.

If an M1911 has been butchered internally, all bets are off, and I have seen a couple like that. But if the gun is in good repair, it is safe and will not go off unless the thumb safety is swept off, a firing grip is on the handle, and the trigger is pulled. If you buy a used M1911 pattern pistol, be sure to have it checked out by a competent gunsmith just to insure that the gun has not been modified or made dangerous by a tinkerer and that it is in good working order.

A sideline: of the pistols I have carried, the M1911 is the only one I carry with the safeties engaged. I carry S&W and Beretta DA/SA guns with the safety off. Glocks and wheel guns don’t have a safety at all (and no, I don’t consider the trigger flange on the Glock a real manual safety). In this respect, the cocked and locked M1911 is the safest pistol. It is unique in the fact that it has not one but two manual safeties which have to be acted upon to make the gun fire.

Now, to argue the other direction for just a second, do I feel safer with a true DA/SA with a firing pin block and a manual safety like a S&W or Beretta? Yes, in an absolute sense, I do when I’m in the world of theoretical possibilities, but again, I think this is more a matter of feeling than reality. Some weird combination of events could conspire to take the safety off, push down the grip safety and pull the trigger all at the same time, but I can’t visualize what that circumstance would be. Nevertheless, when I’m backpacking and I know the gun may have to ride in my backpack and flop around in a tent with me, I will often carry a S&W DA/SA just because some of these strange possibilities come to mind. For the purposes for which a gun is needed, I feel safer with the M1911 because I know I’m going to shoot it better and faster than these other options.

I have seen “accidental discharges” with M1911′s, but without exception they have been instances in which the finger was on the trigger or the fire control group had been modified by an incompetent. I have yet to document a single case in which an M1911 simply experienced a catastrophic failure and went off while cocked and locked. And I do hunt for such stories because this is a concern for a lot of people.

Another interesting “safety feature” of the M1911 was first observed by Massad Ayoob. In the event that a bad guy might get your gun away from you, confusion about the controls of the cocked and locked M1911 could cause him enough hesitation to give you a chance to either get the gun back or flee. The current generation of thugs have cut their teeth on double action semi-autos and revolvers and many do not know how the M1911 operates. Ayoob tested this with people who were unfamiliar with pistols by giving them unloaded pistols of various designs and measuring how long it took them to figure out the controls and make the hammer drop. The M1911 proved to be considerably slower to fire than double action guns in the hands of those who are unfamiliar with the gun.

Q: Is the cocked and locked M1911 a problem for people who are new to firearms and want to keep one for home defense?

In my opinion, cocked and locked does not present either a safety or handling problem. In fact, I would be inclined to argue the other way, that it is very intuitive and simple, and very quickly brought into action. 90 years of successful service tends to bear this out. All you have to do is to sweep the thumb safety down with your thumb and the gun is ready to fire. It is a natural motion and people learn it quickly.

Other issues come into play when you’re considering keeping an 1911 loaded for home defense, such as if you have small children in the home and how much access your friends have to your home, but there is nothing inherently dangerous with having a cocked an locked gun at the ready. If you have really small children who are too young to train on firearms safety, then condition 3 – empty chamber – is definitely the way to go because the child will not know to rack the slide to load it and they will lack the strength in their hands and arms to do it. If you are a very social person who has a lot of parties and people running through your house all the time, then you really should wear it, concealed of course, so that the pistol is under your immediate control and you don’t have to worry about someone finding it and doing something stupid. If that’s not possible, lock it up or find a smarter circle of friends who won’t go through your stuff when you’re not looking.

Finally, the real cure for cocked and locked anxiety is to get “un-new” to the gun. Shoot it, get used to it, learn it so that you don’t have to think about it. Familiarity will dispel that anxiety. Get some training if at all possible. Pistols really require some training and practice to use effectively. A good training session with a qualified professional trainer will help to separate the fact from the fantasy about what you can actually do with your pistol when the chips are down.

I feel that the 1911 is the fastest, best shooting pistol which has ever been built, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t some other good designs out there. You should be comfortable with your gun, and if you just can’t get over that fear about the cocked hammer, find another gun that feels good to you. I love the 1911 because of the way it shoots, but I had some nervousness with them when I was new to them. Practice and familiarity made it go away.

“Due to misplaced concerns about safety and liability, the police have shunned the Condition One (Cocked and Locked) SA auto, mostly in favor of DA autos that aren’t any easier to use than a DA revolver. Claims that the SA auto is unsafe or requires special training are hogwash, something that too many people accept without challenge. And if you don’t believe it, come see me at any CTASAA course and I’ll prove it to you.” – Chuck Taylor



I'd like to add my own comment here - be careful that your holster protects the safety so it doesn't get swept off inadvertently.  I have a holster where I found the safety off, like 3 times.  I got rid of it.  Now I carry the 1911 either in a Galco shoulder rig with a thumb-break strap across the hammer path, and the safety is fully protected by the holster; or in a Desantis Scorpion Kydex IWB holster that has the safety protected from body movements.

Jeff Cooper is the man and probably 2'nd only to John Browning himself when it comes to his influence on handgun use and culture. On top of that he was a patriot in every sense of the word. I really miss his last page columns in Guns & Ammo.

Colt did design and manufacture two types of firing pin blocks on the 1911. The first was the Swartz type which was released when the operators hand activated the grip safety. Although it worked it was deemed incompatible with the newer 1911A and was dropped. Their second type is still used today on many pistols such as my single action only ParaOrdance 1911. I think several other makers use it too. It's called the series 80, my pistol has a reduced diameter "waist" machined into the firing-pin through which a pin protrudes from the bottom when the trigger is not being pressed. When the trigger is pressed it retracts the firing pin block and allows the pistol to fire. From a purely mechanical standpoint the series 80 pistols are safe when they are hammer down on a loaded chamber. The danger lies in the hammer manipulation which must be preformed when getting the gun into and out of this condition.

It's my understanding that the purpose of this firing pin block is to prevent the pistol from firing if it is dropped muzzle down on a hard surface. It's been claimed that in laboratory situations it's possible to cause a non-series 80 to fire under these circumstances even when using a light weight firing pin to limit the firing pins inertia.

I think the double action only Para's use a similar firing pin block but I don't have time to disassemble mine right now to check.

[RedValk]

cocked and locked.....I think some of you guys may enjoy this story. I've told it before...sitting "around the campfire" at inZanes in the past.........

When Sherry and I moved to the Lucky 7 Ranch (we named it that, it had no name when we moved in) in October 1994....we had asked the "nearest neighbor" if there were any issues with crime...break-ins...etc, out in the "sticks". They told us NO, never has been. So we move in. A few weeks later, THEY...got their house broke into and stuff stolen! So........I go on "high alert".

Now, a couple of months later...it's CHRISTMAS DAY. They had called us and told us they would be out of town...please keep an eye on their place. As many of you know, I'm a HUGE gun man...2nd Amendment defender ...retired Military Officer. As such, we have guns in just about EVERY room of the house...and MANY more in the gun safe. So it's Christmas day...I just get through eating a HUGE Christmas day meal...and...Sherry comes out of the kitchen...screaming something to me. It's hard to understand her...she's in a panic. Finally, after I get her to calm down...I get "the neighbors alarm is going off...and I can barely see a strange truck at their place through the woods". Mind you, the neighbors place is a bit further away than city folk's neighbors...we're talking in the country here!

Sure enough, I can hear their alarm faintly in the background. So I go to the bedroom...and on the headboard…there are “his and hers” guns. Hers…an Astra 9 mm. Mine, if I’m going to shoot you…I want something a bit more substantial…so mine…and being an old Military guy it’s a gun near and dear to my heart…probably my FAVORITE…it’s a trusty 1911 . So I grab my 1911…and start for the door. She says “did you get your gun…..which one?” That makes me pause…………a guy can’t have too much firepower. So I go back and ALSO grab her Astra 9 mm.

Now, I head out the door. I make my first of TWO mistakes. Instead of jumping in the truck, I start RUNNING……………down our LONG driveway.  I’ll NEVER make that mistake again. You see it’s about a quarter of a mile to do down that driveway….down the road…to their driveway. So…my adrenaline is pumping…I’m running down the driveway…and at this point, I have TWO guns…one in each hand. At that point I stop….and decide I want the 1911 “cocked and locked”…as we in the military call it (Condition 1…as you guys have pointed out). So I put the Astra in one pants pocket (it’s much smaller than a 1911)…and I attempt to rack the slide on the 1911….and on return….the gun jams. And I think to myself ….THIS…is why you want to have your defense weapon in “cocked and locked”….BEFORE …you get into the panic situation. So I deal with the jam/malfunction…and then….cocked and locked…resume running towards the neighbors……..

I got to their driveway…gasping for breath…about ready to throw up from the excitement of the moment, the long run…and the big meal! I met the truck just as it got to the end of the driveway…it slid to a stop in the gravel driveway and  actually bumped into me…knocking me onto the hood….gun pointed squarely at the driver.

Many have heard this story. Long story short (ask me for the long version over a cold beverage some day!)…after holding the “stranger” at gunpoint….I found out later…it was another neighbor…whom I had not met yet…who lived on the other side of my neighbor…and he too…had come to check on the alarm going off.  That neighbor NEVER spoke to me again…till the day he moved…after that incident. Actually, I can’t say as I blame him. And…the local police named me “Rambo”…for going to the neighbors…wearing a tank top ….with two guns….and holding my neighbor at gunpoint.

My two takeaways from this encounter?

NEVER…run to the neighbors in a situation like that again…take THE TRUCK!

NEVER…go into a situation like that…without having my weapon ready in cocked and locked…or condition 1….etc.

oh yea, one other thing...i made it a point to meet any new neighbors  in the futre 

[Chrisj CMA]

Tim....that there is a rare story......somehow I had never heard it before.  Me and Judy also keep several guns around the house, in the Truck (when were in there too) and in the saddlebag.  If I wanted to scare the poop out of a would be robber and also be able to shoot his truck dead....theres nothing more intimidating that a barrel you could crawl down and take a nap in. LOL


But, that being said.......I always have my trusty .357 near by......Its like part of me, been carrying it for 30 years (well now I have a new one) but its the same thing......oh and also now Im carrying legal like......good for Alabama too

[The Anvil]

It looks like a Super WalMart grocery section. Can't say for certain, but they don't have Smiley faces all over the place like the rest of the store.

There's nothing wrong with the height of the holster. I wear a Galco that rides higher than that and have no trouble drawing and firing. In fact, I prefer it to lower riding holsters for a number of reasons. The belt may not be the only means of support. It might have a paddle on the back. But women are fortunate. Their hips hold guns up better than ours.

If at all possible the weapons should be cocked and locked with a round in the chamber, unless it's a DA like a USP. I carry a USP .40 but I carry cocked and locked because I want the second trigger pull to feel just like the first.

[texaninsouthfl]

Yep, OC is nice if you want to push awareness and 2nd amendment rights.  Not so good if you actually want to protect yourself and others. There goes the advantage of surprise.  And makes you the first target if there is a perp about to commit mayhem. Not to mention  someone jumping you from your blindside and taking it away.  

I always liked reading your posts and agree with most things you say but disagree with this one. The ones who come up with these myths are cc'ers and never OC. Same as for myths about CC. Most I dont agree with because I also cc. Jump over to www.opencarry.org and you will be highly enlightened.  

+1  

I haven't EVER heard of a situation in which a bad guy walked into an establishment with ill intent and shot up the place, starting with the guy with a .45 carried openly on his belt. It just doesn't happen.  It's far more likely that a bad guy with ill intent, upon observing an armed citizen in an establishment, will move on to another target he thinks he can rob with less likelihood of becoming DRT.

With that said, even if one were allowed open carry in Florida, I would still choose to carry concealed....not because of the mythical  "bad guys will shoot the OC guy first" but because I just don't care to deal with the irrational reactions of civilians AND LEO's to seeing a weapon on someone's hip. I do like the idea of OC in that you don't have the limitations of size created by the need to conceal the weapon... but to me it just wouldn't be worth the potential hassle.

[X Ring]

Yep, OC is nice if you want to push awareness and 2nd amendment rights.  Not so good if you actually want to protect yourself and others. There goes the advantage of surprise.  And makes you the first target if there is a perp about to commit mayhem. Not to mention  someone jumping you from your blindside and taking it away.  

I always liked reading your posts and agree with most things you say but disagree with this one. The ones who come up with these myths are cc'ers and never OC. Same as for myths about CC. Most I dont agree with because I also cc. Jump over to www.opencarry.org and you will be highly enlightened.  

+1  

I haven't EVER heard of a situation in which a bad guy walked into an establishment with ill intent and shot up the place, starting with the guy with a .45 carried openly on his belt. It just doesn't happen.  It's far more likely that a bad guy with ill intent, upon observing an armed citizen in an establishment, will move on to another target he thinks he can rob with less likelihood of becoming DRT.

With that said, even if one were allowed open carry in Florida, I would still choose to carry concealed....not because of the mythical  "bad guys will shoot the OC guy first" but because I just don't care to deal with the irrational reactions of civilians AND LEO's to seeing a weapon on someone's hip. I do like the idea of OC in that you don't have the limitations of size created by the need to conceal the weapon... but to me it just wouldn't be worth the potential hassle.

Hmmm, don't see many people using the DRT acronym here.

Marty

[SANDMAN5]

Hmmm, don't see many people using the DRT acronym here.

Marty

I believe that's the first time I've seen it here!!

[Chrisj CMA]

Hmmm, don't see many people using the DRT acronym here.

Marty

I believe that's the first time I've seen it here!!

I use it when explaining why I want a 50cal revolver to pig hunt with.  I want the pig DRT.  I dont want to chase it one foot 

[The Anvil]

Sorry guys but Mark is right. Open Carry makes you the first target. I mean I'm not against it from a legal standpoint but I don't do it myself.

[solo1]

This is a very interesting thread.  I did own at one time a 1911 Series 70.  Excellent gun but not really made for southpaws like me, but Browning knew what he was doing.

I had the opportunity to recently review our police dept's manual.  As a BOW member i am required to give approval.  The manual specifically does not allow condition 1 for 1911 style handguns.  Probably more a matter of civilians getting nervous but I don't know.

I have had a number of Glocks but only have one at the present, a model 35 Tactical/Practical.  I would never recommend a Glock to a novice as it's not forgiving, one lapse and AD.
I use a trigger block device that fills the space behind the trigger and is easily 'popped out' when needed. It is especially useful for lefties as it would take some time for a bad guy to figure out if he grabbed the gun  The Glock iIMO, should never be carried in a fanny pack without a trigger block.

Having said all that, I use the Glock for a house gun only with dayglo sights and a laser.

My carry might be a Bersa Thunder, a Sig250 DOA in .357Sig, or the old reliable, a Centennial with a Black Widow for backup. I also have a cross draw or conventional holster that fits my Vaqueros .357 or .44 mag.  I need suspenders for them, however.

I never OC.

[fudgie]

I haven't EVER heard of a situation in which a bad guy walked into an establishment with ill intent and shot up the place, starting with the guy with a .45 carried openly on his belt. It just doesn't happen.  It's far more likely that a bad guy with ill intent, upon observing an armed citizen in an establishment, will move on to another target he thinks he can rob with less likelihood of becoming DRT.

With that said, even if one were allowed open carry in Florida, I would still choose to carry concealed....not because of the mythical  "bad guys will shoot the OC guy first" but because I just don't care to deal with the irrational reactions of civilians AND LEO's to seeing a weapon on someone's hip. I do like the idea of OC in that you don't have the limitations of size created by the need to conceal the weapon... but to me it just wouldn't be worth the potential hassle.

Because there are no reported incidences of it happening. Of the thousands and thousands of OCDO members, in all 50 States, none have found reported evidence saying you will or have become a target. Thats like saying if you wreck on your scoot without a helmet on you will die. Sure non mc riders believe it but mc riders know its not true.  There are thousands of oc rallies and get togethers every year and none have been shot up.  Now there are tons of info about folks casing a joint and seeing armed customers and they leave to rob some place else. To me, I like that.  Dont worry about the public or leo reactions. It may happen, it may not. Rule number 1, never talk to leos about gun laws. Learn them yourself. Remember LEO's are to enforce laws, not opinions.  In my 3-4 yrs of OC I only had 1 guy give me crap and wanted me to leave blah blah blah. It was coverd. He is dead now so he aint much trouble anymore.