I DON"T UNDERSTAND....&^%@#%^&*&%#$$

[Rio Wil]

 

Just pulled my final drive for the 15K inspection....the final drive splines are fine, the drive shaft/ujoint splines are fine.....THE FRIGGIN PINION CUP/DRIVE SHAFT SPLINES ARE THE WORST I HAVE EVER SEEN. There is enough red rust to start a foundry....this is a new p/c and drive shaft as of 15K miles ago.

I used a light coating of moly grease, drained and refilled the drive unit with new gear lube and of course the 2 p/c lube holes were spotlessly clean.

The drive shaft and p/c are still useable and I am gonna just pack the damn thing with blue waterproof grease and give that a go!!!!!

There has gotta be another dynamic at play here.....WTF

This is my 3rd P/C and shaft......

[Gavin_Sons]

Must be the year for final drive failures.

[Valhalla]

Could there be something out of alignment, causing excessive wear and the filings are initiating a rust environment?

[old2soon]

Looks to me anywho like we ain't done with this particular horse just yet.  RIDE SAFE.

[gordonv]

Did you inspect your boot, see if what might be getting in from there?

[Brian]

After seeing all this stuff is why each spring it all comes a part for inspection and lube. And I only average 4,000 miles a year, mostly all in town riding.

Good luck.

[Jess from VA]

This is the subject of another current, long thread..... Beating a dead horse.

I'd sure like to know why too.

Some get rust, many do not, and everyone involved appears to be trying to properly service the rear end.

I usually like a mystery, this one not so much.

[sandy]

You don't say what brand of moly grease you use. I use Valvoline Durablend moly (3%). 134K and no problems. I'm also not believing that gear lube is suppose to come up and help. I put in grease assuming that it's doing the whole job.

[98valk]

First I use a thin coat of copper anti-sieze on all spline surfaces like it comes from the factory (this is perceived as rust the first time the units are taken apart) before using TS-65 M.P.Moly Grease is a multipurpose, semi-synthetic inorganic wheel bearing and chassis grease with moly. It is water insoluble and withstands high temperatures. TS-65 is an extreme pressure grease making it suitable for heavy duty industrial uses.
http://www.tsmoly.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_2&products_id=58

I've been through down pours with the roads flooded up to the foot pegs, coming up on 40k miles and everything looks new.
manual calls for pinion joint spline and the drive shaft spline to both get grease before installation. been using TS products since new.

I also use, TS-70 Moly Paste is a thread compound with 70% molybdenum disulfide, NLGI No.2, especially suitable for wet or corrosive conditions, including subsea applications. It has highly consistent torque values for makeup and breakout.
http://www.tsmoly.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_7&products_id=93
on the drive flange.

[F6MoRider]

Maybe a focus on the pinion and spline problems is needed at Inzane?

[Rio Wil]

Could there be something out of alignment, causing excessive wear and the filings are initiating a rust environment?

The only alignment is tightening the four nuts up on the final drive/drive shaft housing and that is pretty easy to spot if for some reason you get it in a bind....?

Did you inspect your boot, see if what might be getting in from there?

Yeah the boot looks OK, I don't think he red rust is from water intrusion but from a heating and cooling cycle when the splines get hot as hell due to lack of lube then cool off.  Hotter they get the more they burn off the volatilizes in the lube and the cycle starts again for every ride.

 You don't say what brand of moly grease you use. I use Valvoline Durablend moly (3%). 134K and n

I initially used Honda 60% early on, then switched to Guard Dog 70, then started using a blend of GD and 3% Sta-Lube extreme pressure. I am not sure it makes any difference, we have guys here that use strictly all Honda, all GD, all waterproof boat grease, blends of the afore mentioned lubes.....wouldn't  surprise me if someone is using Vaseline.....and with with great success.... and others using the same lubes have failures????

I've been through down pours with the roads flooded up to the foot pegs, coming up on 40k miles and everything looks new.

I would think if there was a water intrusion issue (and I ride in the rain a lot) that there would be some evidence of rust/ corrosion in the bore of the drive shaft housing (swing arm)......but it's not, it's just inside the p/c.

First I use a thin coat of copper anti-sieze on all spline surfaces like it comes from the factory (this is perceived as rust the first time the units are taken apart)

Wouldn't the copper/zinc/nickel in anti-seize pretty much do the same thing as the moly in actual lubes.....except they might not last/function as well as moly......anti-sieze is not meant as a lubricant so it will need some help..

[Chrisj CMA]

maybe that oil seal is a clue.........doesnt look perched on its perch too securely

[Rio Wil]

maybe that oil seal is a clue.........doesnt look perched on its perch too securely

That is a good observation......the seal was not seated in the cup when I removed the final drive.  I have seen that before and don't remember if any spline damage was present or not.  I do remember seeing a seal that was actually partially melted from heat. This seal cleaned up nicely, it's not brittle or any evidence of high temps....wonder it the high temp/cool off cycles caused the seal to walk out of the cup. I am pretty aware of the seal seating when installing the final drive.......hmmmmm

[9Ball]

Did you inspect your boot, see if what might be getting in from there?

that would be my guess too....

[98valk]

pg 12-18 of the service manual calls for a new oil seal upon assembly along with a new stopper ring. The seal actually has a tension spring inside of the outer portion of it. I have always inspected mine for any stretch of the spring or other damage and check the tension and looseness of the stopper ring.

[doubletee]

maybe that oil seal is a clue.........doesnt look perched on its perch too securely

+1

[Chrisj CMA]

maybe that oil seal is a clue.........doesnt look perched on its perch too securely

 This seal cleaned up nicely, it's not brittle or any evidence of high temps....

I would not be reusing that seal...........One question though.  You mentioned wondering if it got slid off during installation.  The only way that should be able to happen is if you install the drive shaft and the final drive separately, which is not a good thing for this very reason. Is that how you installed it last time, the drive shaft alone and then the final drive?

[Brian]

Has anyone with this found condition gone to other motorcycle blogs that uses drive shafts to see if they have this same issue and what they have found?

I tend to think that there would need to be a lot of water needed and that seal out of place to cause this problem. One might think that if Honda thought there was a chance for a lot of water to get in the swingarm there would be a weep hole at the bottom just at the lip of the final drive that is inserted. Not too mention that the mounting flange is not water tight so why wouldn't there be signs of rusty water or stains on the garage floor where the bike is parked. Is there rust or water in the final drive fluid? The swingarm tube would need to be filled with water to the point where the shaft and seal would be covered. I too don't feel it is water intrusion at this time.

[Patrick]

My thoughts too are of the cup/shaft seal. If water is getting past the boot, it would still be hard for it get past the seal if it was in good condition and properly in place.
I had a hard time once getting the drive shaft on whole assembly to go into the u-joint. So, I installed the drive shaft first then the rear assembly. Chris made mention of the seal, I then removed everything and noticed the seal had not slid into the cup. I ended up filing the u-joint splines a bit and the whole assembly/shaft slid more easily into place.

[signart]

Water, seals, grease, all seems irrelevant if those holes are supposed to be responsible for the lubrication with gear oil. If those holes are lubricating the p/c area case there should never be rust in there, right? So what now?

[hubcapsc]

Water, seals, grease, all seems irrelevant if those holes are supposed to be responsible for the lubrication with gear oil. If those holes are lubricating the p/c area case there should never be rust in there, right? So what now?

I should change my handle to KidRust or something. I'm beginning to believe that I have
been too stingy with the "little dab of" moly grease when I do maintenance, people who
put in a bunch of grease don't ever seem to have the problem, I bet that
a-bunch-of-grease + checking-in-there-every-tire compensates for plugging the
pinion cup holes.

I don't have an explanation for why too little grease leads to plugged holes, but once
they're plugged and it is dry in there, I don't think water needs to get in to form that
rust crap. You can clearly see in our dry rusty pinion cups that the splines are being
abraded away... perhaps the metal bits + humidity = rusty looking dust.

I don't think any water is getting inside my swingarm nor my final drive.

-Mike

[Valker]

My experience was similar to yours. When I used the poly paste it calls for, I always had that exact same red, powdered rust. My splines eventually had to be replaced. When I switched to a high quality grease (my favorite is AmsOil Race 2000- but I also use the green waterproof stuff) I've not had any of that red rust. I've started to think that the Moly breaks down into something that causes the red rust.

[Ricky-D]

If you assume the red is rust and there seems to be a lot of it, it must result from a lot of water, so I suggest to check the condition of the pumpkin lubricant.

I'd think it would show signs of water mixing in and forming an emulsion.

To me, my feeling is this is a result of an improperly installed boot or a damaged boot. I can't see water getting in there any other way.

That is if it's indeed rust.

Very interesting and I'll be looking at mine soon to see how it looks. It'll be a year.

Here's a question. Have you checked to see if the vent in the pumpkin is clear?

***

[Rio Wil]

What really makes me nuts is, for three maintenance intervals it will be fine, the fourth interval, it will be this crap.  I use the same process, same lube, same cleaning procedures, same inspection of the drive shaft boot, same care to insure the seal is seated in the cup with the drive shaft installed in the cup, it only takes 15-30 seconds to mate the drive shaft with the ujoint (with the swing positioned properly). The final drive lube is usually a bit discolored grayish from the moly paste intrusion, but never anything that looks like water in the lube.
I am beginning to think the red rust (its easy to call it that cause it looks like rust) might be the result of heating the moly to a high temp, mix it with a few metal particles and it turns red.....I am going to take some moly paste and heat it with a torch and evaporate the volatiles and see if it turns red!!!!!!

HDL has the cup and drive shaft for 48 and 35 bucks each so will get them on order, this pair will last for another maintenance interval and then will replace them.....makes me NUTS!!!!

QUESTION:::::::: HAS ANYONE HAD A DAMAGED CUP AND DRIVE SHAFT WHEN USING GREASE AND NOT THE MOLY PASTE??????

[Chrisj CMA]

What really makes me nuts is, for three maintenance intervals it will be fine, the fourth interval, it will be this crap.  I use the same process, same lube, same cleaning procedures, same inspection of the drive shaft boot, same care to insure the seal is seated in the cup with the drive shaft installed in the cup, it only takes 15-30 seconds to mate the drive shaft with the ujoint (with the swing positioned properly). The final drive lube is usually a bit discolored grayish from the moly paste intrusion, but never anything that looks like water in the lube.
I am beginning to think the red rust (its easy to call it that cause it looks like rust) might be the result of heating the moly to a high temp, mix it with a few metal particles and it turns red.....I am going to take some moly paste and heat it with a torch and evaporate the volatiles and see if it turns red!!!!!!

HDL has the cup and drive shaft for 48 and 35 bucks each so will get them on order, this pair will last for another maintenance interval and then will replace them.....makes me NUTS!!!!

QUESTION:::::::: HAS ANYONE HAD A DAMAGED CUP AND DRIVE SHAFT WHEN USING GREASE AND NOT THE MOLY PASTE??????

moly grease is what is called for not paste.....Unless you are using the black tube Honda moly 60 "Paste" that is really a grease and works good on the drive shaft

[Valkpilot]

moly grease is what is called for not paste.....Unless you are using the black tube Honda moly 60 "Paste" that is really a grease and works good on the drive shaft

You're right that what the manual calls for is only 3% moly content grease in the pinion joint, not the minimum 40% moly content paste called for on the the drive splines of the hub.

The Honda 60 black tube stuff is a moly paste even though it has a oil/grease carrier.  The high moly solids content is what qualifies it as a paste, not the carrier material.

[Patrick]

I just use a good water-proof grease and have not had a problem, but, I don't put the miles on that some fellas do.
The 2 little oil holes are always clear, I've removed the cup to check, and have never had oil migrate to the cup. This last time I added oil to the cup upon assembly and I'm waiting to see if it stays put.
I also wonder if some are using a pressure washer, but, if water gets past the boot it should drain out and not get past the seal.

[Chrisj CMA]

moly grease is what is called for not paste.....Unless you are using the black tube Honda moly 60 "Paste" that is really a grease and works good on the drive shaft

You're right that what the manual calls for is only 3% moly content grease in the pinion joint, not the minimum 40% moly content paste called for on the the drive splines of the hub.

The Honda 60 black tube stuff is a moly paste even though it has a oil/grease carrier.  The high moly solids content is what qualifies it as a paste, not the carrier material.

read on the tube (small print) It specifically says to use it as a grease.  Its a trick, I wrote a letter to Honda, they called me on the phone and said I was correct, that "stuff" is ok as a grease for the driveshaft but insufficient for the drive splines

[hubcapsc]

MOLY 60 PASTE

60% MOLYBDENUM DISULPHIDE

Coats metal surfaces with a long lasting ....

Lubricates bearings, gears, and all slid...

Recommended for Honda Pro Link Suspension

Use for driveshaft splines & other... components

Use where moly 45 grease is ...



This stuff seems to work as advertised, I wouldn't put it in my pinion cup...

-Mike "AKA: RustKid"

[Chrisj CMA]

MOLY 60 PASTE

60% MOLYBDENUM DISULPHIDE

Coats metal surfaces with a long lasting ....

Lubricates bearings, gears, and all slid...

Recommended for Honda Pro Link Suspension

Use for driveshaft splines & other... components

Use where moly 45 grease is ...



This stuff seems to work as advertised, I wouldn't put it in my pinion cup...

-Mike "AKA: RustKid"

Im just the opposite Mike.  I wouldnt put that on drive splines but I have been using it for 11 years on the pinion splines with perfect results.  This is how much I use

[Rio Wil]

Ok....I think we all agree that the Honda Maintenance calls for:

60% moly paste on the drive flange splines
     Some use 70% Guard Dog for this purpose

3% moly grease on the pinion cup and drive shaft splines
     Honda says moly grease but doesn't specify the % of moly (I think this is right)

Using the above lubes has resulted in failures for some of us on both sets of splines.
This has let to some using a waterproof grease with or without some moly content
and seem to be having good results even using it on both sets of splines.

This time, I am using a waterproof green marine grease on the pc/drive shaft in
liberal quantities.....damn the two "lube holes"....

Am using a blend of the same marine grease with about 20% Guard Dog mixed in to give
some presence of moly....keep in mins some have used only waterproof grease with no
moly content on the drive flange.

So straight green stuff (globs) on the p/c cup and drive shaft and a blend on the final drive splines.

DAMN the TORPEDOES and FULL SPEED AHEAD, will check in 10K miles and see what gives....

Ya know, the final drive flange (and wheel) is only running about 700-800 rpm at 60-70 mph. And actually, within it's environment, it's running at 0 rpm but it does wiggle a bit so it has maybe 700-800 twpm (tiny wiggles per minute). The pc/drive shaft shares a similar environment but since to rotates at about 2.8 times the rotation of the final drive, it has maybe 2000 or so twpm's....
So if they only move at twpm WHY ARE THEY SO MUCH OF A PAIN IN THE PUMPKIN!


As an aside......did ya'll know the final drive drain plug has a magnet imbedded in the end of the plug?
I kept trying to clean a bit of gray material from the end of the plug and it was not going away, got a screwdriver and shore'nuff it was magnetic.

[Chrisj CMA]

Ok....I think we all agree that the Honda Maintenance calls for:

60% moly paste on the drive flange splines
     Some use 70% Guard Dog for this purpose

3% moly grease on the pinion cup and drive shaft splines
     Honda says moly grease but doesn't specify the % of moly (I think this is right)

Using the above lubes has resulted in failures for some of us on both sets of splines.
This has let to some using a waterproof grease with or without some moly content
and seem to be having good results even using it on both sets of splines.

This time, I am using a waterproof green marine grease on the pc/drive shaft in
liberal quantities.....damn the two "lube holes"....

Am using a blend of the same marine grease with about 20% Guard Dog mixed in to give
some presence of moly....keep in mins some have used only waterproof grease with no
moly content on the drive flange.

So straight green stuff (globs) on the p/c cup and drive shaft and a blend on the final drive splines.

DAMN the TORPEDOES and FULL SPEED AHEAD, will check in 10K miles and see what gives....

Ya know, the final drive flange (and wheel) is only running about 700-800 rpm at 60-70 mph. And actually, within it's environment, it's running at 0 rpm but it does wiggle a bit so it has maybe 700-800 twpm (tiny wiggles per minute). The pc/drive shaft shares a similar environment but since to rotates at about 2.8 times the rotation of the final drive, it has maybe 2000 or so twpm's....
So if they only move at twpm WHY ARE THEY SO MUCH OF A PAIN IN THE PUMPKIN!


As an aside......did ya'll know the final drive drain plug has a magnet imbedded in the end of the plug?
I kept trying to clean a bit of gray material from the end of the plug and it was not going away, got a screwdriver and shore'nuff it was magnetic.

I don't know why so many want to make this so hard.  Some of us have been at this quite a while and have tried all kinds of stuff.  When I found out what worked I made a slide show with as detailed pictures as I could to share my knowledge.  If anyone wants to believe that Honda 60 paste is good for the drive splines, well they will remember my words when they are looking for a final drive.

The approach Rio will is taking is very similar to what I do.  Rio, you should have no trouble.  However make sure you apply most of your lube to the female splines in the final drive instead of on the male splines (flange) so all the lube does'nt get pushed off on assembly

[Rio Wil]

However make sure you apply most of your lube to the female splines in the final drive instead of on the male splines (flange) so all the lube does'nt get pushed off on assembly



Agreed! I use a small screwdriver and small brush to make sure the bottom and splines are well slathered.....

I have done this about 12-14 times, one would think sooner or later I would get it right....

[ValkFlyer]

Just a comment, I'm not convinced the oil level in the final drive is high enough for the what is being called the lube holes to be functional.

[signart]

That's what I'm wondering, if a simple measured overfill might be the ticket whether the splines are meant to be lubed with oil or not. I think Jabba is experimenting with this but no report yet. This could be a game changer if it worked.

[Jess from VA]

Seems to me a few extra ounces could only be good.  Any the pumpkin does not like will be squirted out the vent (I've had a little on the wheel, never much on the tire).  Of course to overfill, it has to be off the bike.

[ValkFlyer]

That's what I'm wondering, if a simple measured overfill might be the ticket whether the splines are meant to be lubed with oil or not. I think Jabba is experimenting with this but no report yet. This could be a game changer if it worked.

Raise it to much and you're impacting the gear case bearings.

[98valk]

"Splines on motorcycles are used to connect power transmitting parts. It is a simple an efficient way to do the job. Spline parts that move in and out or rock back and forth on their spline surface need constant lubrication to limit their ware. These type of spline parts should run in oil. Most motorcycles that use moving splines always have the parts running in oil. Motorcycle manufacturer such as BMW Moto Guzzi and Honda for some models (notably the Goldwing 1500) prefer to use a simpler and more economical approach that use dry splines that need periodic maintenance and greasing , this is cheap and lazy engineering."
http://mcmoto.aomx.de/maintain.html

"There sometimes is a minor amount of gear oil in the rear spline area, however it is worthless."
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/forums/2-goldwing-technical-forum/385425-gl1500-pinion-spline-lube.html

your rust with pics, its not rust.
"I have seen axles that use other lubricants and the splines are generally blue or coffee colored indicating the effects of high temperature – much as you would see on chips formed in the machining process. "
http://www.stargis.net/webslinger/SplineLube.htm

why I use high % moly grease and paste by TS-moly which is used under seawater on drilling rigs, there is nothing better except the Krytox which is $$$$$
MoS2 with particle sizes in the range of 1–100 µm is a common dry lubricant. Few alternatives exist that can confer the high lubricity and stability up to 350 °C in oxidizing environments. Sliding friction tests of MoS2 using a pin on disc tester at low loads (0.1–2 N) give friction coefficient values of <0.1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulfide
http://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/molybdenum_disulfide_characteristics.htm

[Red Diamond]

I use Belray water proof grease on the u-joint, the pinion cup and anything else that I can grease. I also use a pressure washer at times, depending how dirty the bike is. No problems so far. The moly grease from Honda seems too thin for me. I also don't think the final drive oil is for lubricating the pinion cup, it only requires 5 ounces. If you look at 5 ounces, it's not very much oil, only enough to lube the final drive gears, not much else.

[Rio Wil]

OK Red Diamond....fess up....  How did you get to California without going through one of the intervening states.  That Valk is fast,.....It ain't gonna fly!!!