Universal heath care

[Momz]

There sure seems to be a lot of emotional backlash from both those for and against.

I have a wife that still has Healthcare insurance, and I am covered under her policy. I am also disabled and collecting SS. Not quite the way I'd would've like my life to be at my age.

When I was working, I always had good insurance (BC/BS,Travelers, and other good providers). However we now have Aetna. This has been a joke of an insurance company. I must take 18 different drugs every day and to try and save money we use their mail-in pharmacy. That is a very sore point, as my perscriptions are always shipped late, wrong drugs, lost records, double and triple charged for shipments, or completely refuseing to fill the perscriptions as there are no generic equvilents.

After my surgery last year I was supposed to get up to six months of physical therapy. Aetna cut off payments to the PT due to my lack of muscular increase, although my mobility issues were getting substanstially greater. My Dr. wrote another PT persrciption. Aetna refused ant more PT and then charged me for the Dr. follow up visit.

Now I have been informed that any new health issues will no longer be covered.

So I don't quite understand why people are so against healthcare reform. Is government intervention all that bad? I know that if I were collecting SSI and Medicare, that my health issues would be better covered.

[SgtBunny]

Hate to hear your problems.

I don't think it is health care reform that people are opposed to but the way in which government wants to pay for it as well as some of the programs and verbage they are using in it.

I particularly do not like the idea of someone deciding my level of health care and options based on what my income level is. 

[Chrisj CMA]

Momz....I am sorry to hear of your plight.......however, I think the opposition to the president is not opposition to medical reform in general, it is opposition to the specific changes he is wanting to perpetrate on the American people.

We need reform in the legal areana
we need to erase intra state restrictions so insurance companies can truly share and compete
we also need to have incentives for more doctors
and we need some more standardized medical practices

But, it must not be totally controlled by the government
or free to non citizens
medial insurance should not be mandatory.....it needs to be affordable
IF we can swing a way to cover the poor for free I have no problems there but the way "president" Obama is trying to do it, many will be forced to get coverage even though they can afford the care outright (AND PREFER TO PAY AS THEY GO) and anyone sneaking into the country illegally can get the same care for free too.....just aint right

[F-106]

I can understand why you feel this way. From your point of view it looks like goverment run heath care would work. But all i can tell you is this. Coming from someone that worked for the feds for over 22 years, This is the last thing you want. Over the years i have tried to tell folks about the ways goverment runs, and as many times as i have tried ,folks just dont understand that anything the goverment gets its hands on it will not work the way it was ment to. Oversight and regs hault all progress. They may pay for your treatments and meds but it will die of your illness before it gets paid for. And all because some GS-6 decides to take off for 2-3 weeks and nobody picks-up their work load so you wait and wait. I know guys that retired a few years before me. They waited 6-8 months for their retirement pay to start. In the mean time they lost all their savings and a few lost their homes. All because of goverment red tape. These will be the same people that runs your health care system. No thanks.

[SgtBunny]

I can understand why you feel this way. From your point of view it looks like goverment run heath care would work. But all i can tell you is this. Coming from someone that worked for the feds for over 22 years, This is the last thing you want. Over the years i have tried to tell folks about the ways goverment runs, and as many times as i have tried ,folks just dont understand that anything the goverment gets its hands on it will not work the way it was ment to. Oversight and regs hault all progress. They may pay for your treatments and meds but it will die of your illness before it gets paid for. And all because some GS-6 decides to take off for 2-3 weeks and nobody picks-up their work load so you wait and wait. I know guys that retired a few years before me. They waited 6-8 months for their retirement pay to start. In the mean time they lost all their savings and a few lost their homes. All because of goverment red tape. These will be the same people that runs your health care system. No thanks.

I will second that analogy as I have witness similar happenings over and over.  You have to love the whole "its not my job" mentality of federal employees.  Before anyone gets offended, I can say that as I was once one and then got smart and became a contractor so I could do it to them in return.

[BF]

The problem with most insurance......of ALL types......is that it's only good untill ya need it.  I've found this to be true with health insurance, auto insurance and homeowners insurance.  The insurance industry is nothing more than legalized extorsion IMHO.  You pay, pay, pay.....then file a claim and HOPE they pay. 
I don't have any answers here, but I do know the system is one sided. 

[valkmc]

The problem with most insurance......of ALL types......is that it's only good untill ya need it.  I've found this to be true with health insurance, auto insurance and homeowners insurance.  The insurance industry is nothing more than legalized extorsion IMHO.  You pay, pay, pay.....then file a claim and HOPE they pay. 
I don't have any answers here, but I do know the system is one sided. 

e

I agree, I am also against big government, but health insurance today is all about the bottom line. No one cares about the health of the individual. People say all the time they don't want someone in gov deciding their health care treatment but right now health care decisions are made many times by accounts and not doctors. I really hate big business when it is unregulated and exploits not only consumers but employees. I pay my taxes and expect the politicians to have my best interest and this countries best interest at heart and frankly I can't remember an administration that seemed to do that. If someone doesn't stand up to the Aetnas and exxons and BCBS's of the world they will bleed us for their own profit.

[Momz]

After my last accident, the ER Dr. said that I needed to see an orthopedic specialist. Aetna requires that I get a referral from my family Dr. before seeing a specialist. My accident happened on a thursday, and my Dr. does not work on fridays and any calls would be answered on the following monday.

Could not see the ortho-doc untill the next wednesday (six days after the bones were broken). Come on now, how much worse does it get!

Maybe if my wife loses her job (operations analyst for an automotive supplier) we might be eligible for SSI and medicare. The coverage for those recipients far exceeds what we have now.

Sorry for ranting, but this just ridiculus. It's the patient that suffers from the greed of the insurance companies and the incompitent health care system.

[Varmintmist]

So where is there a better system?

In England they have so many staff infections that is is safer to not go to the hospital, Canada is saying that they are bankrupt. What do you do when you run out of other peoples money?

The problem with health care in the US IS the govt.

They force the prices on folks who pay by lowballing medicare payments at less than 60% of the value. There is no limit to malpractice claims. (BTW who is the #1 or 2 contributor to the Dems? Trial lawyers) I dont have a problem with making a person "whole" if a doc screws up, but hitting the lottery is not fair to them either. Thats why you pay large. Aks your doc what he pays in PERSONAL malpractice insurance. I know for a fact that a friend of mine pays more than twice my salary per year, PERSONALLY. The Hospital pays more on top of that. 

[fudgie]

Yes imho Aetna sux. Kit had it at work for a year. She recently dropped it cause it cost her to much to have it. When she took the insurance her work reduced her hourly by $1. Well now she cant pay her bills cause of the insurance, which recently went up. She dropped it and now has none. She needed that extra $1 per hour. She is young and realativly in good health. I on the other hand have been lucky with my insurance. Signature Care. I only pay $75 or so every 2 weeks, employer pays the rest. Only benefit of working for a hospital. The most I ever had to pay for a bill was $200 and this was after 2 days of being admitted.
Medicare is good. We (EMS) bill medicare even if you have another provider, if you are over 65. Medicare will only pay a EMS bill if they 'deem it a emergency'. There is a very short list of what they will pay. We actually have to tell medicare pts that this ambulance bill may not be paid by medicare and you will be responsible for the bill.
Medicade is good for the right people. We only get around $50 per medicade EMS run even if the bill is $700. We eat the rest. It is abused tremendously here in my town.
If it does pass and limits are set on what we will be reimbursed, EMS systems will be shut down. They may have to go volunteer which will hurt the public. For a example, we have been in the red for over 10 yrs (guessing). There is no way the county can afford a EMS service so a Reginal hospital bought us and the county gives us $200,000 a year (hopefully). We are always $100,000+ in the hole every year. We never break even. After time it really adds up.

[fudgie]

So where is there a better system?

In England they have so many staff infections that is is safer to not go to the hospital, Canada is saying that they are bankrupt. What do you do when you run out of other peoples money?

The problem with health care in the US IS the govt.

They force the prices on folks who pay by lowballing medicare payments at less than 60% of the value. There is no limit to malpractice claims. (BTW who is the #1 or 2 contributor to the Dems? Trial lawyers) I dont have a problem with making a person "whole" if a doc screws up, but hitting the lottery is not fair to them either. Thats why you pay large. Aks your doc what he pays in PERSONAL malpractice insurance. I know for a fact that a friend of mine pays more than twice my salary per year, PERSONALLY. The Hospital pays more on top of that. 

Last I remember our ER doc pays $100,000 a year on his.
I think the system would be better if service was paid for what its worth. Ex, we have a medication that is only $10 to buy but we may charge $110. Back in 98 when I started, we would charge for items we used. Well medicare came along and said whoa! You charged us $100 for a pt that cut his arm. Well we are paying you $400 for this instead. Other insurance companies saw this and raised there rate to match what medicare set. Now a bare minimum ems run is $500. Whether you have a small cut or fell from a roof and are unconcious, you pay the same amount. You have abdominal pain and need some narcs for pain control or are in full arrest, you pay the same amount. Bullcrap.

[asfltdncr]

Pay as you go?
What happens when you have a catastrophic illness?Who pays then?
What states have such fantastic and cheap care that it would help anyone in another state to subscribe to it?Birthers,death panels,euthanasia,socialism-fringe groups on the right firing up weak people.
Momz....I am sorry to hear of your plight.......however, I think the opposition to the president is not opposition to medical reform in general, it is opposition to the specific changes he is wanting to perpetrate on the American people.

We need reform in the legal areana
we need to erase intra state restrictions so insurance companies can truly share and compete
we also need to have incentives for more doctors
and we need some more standardized medical practices

But, it must not be totally controlled by the government
or free to non citizens
medial insurance should not be mandatory.....it needs to be affordable
IF we can swing a way to cover the poor for free I have no problems there but the way "president" Obama is trying to do it, many will be forced to get coverage even though they can afford the care outright (AND PREFER TO PAY AS THEY GO) and anyone sneaking into the country illegally can get the same care for free too.....just aint right

[Brad]

I think everyone wants health care reform.  The problem is we have all dealt with the government since birth and most of us are not interested in government run health care.  My parents are both on medicare and find it very difficult to see a doctor in the area they live.  Most doctors are not accepting new medicare patients do to the low payments from the government.  My Grandfather died while waiting to get surgery thru the VA system due to a paperwork problem that took them over a year to fix.  I want insurance and health care reform.  I also want far fewer dealings with government than I currently have.

[Varmintmist]

Last I remember our ER doc pays $100,000 a year on his.

Thats why DR's leave PA. You are at ONLY 100K/year per doc. PA has the highest malpractice ins in the country.

[MP]

I hope you get well Momz.
However, do you know that it will be better run by the gov't?  I do not.  I do not think all will be covered for everything, with no questions asked.
They are talking about panels to decide "appropriate" care.  That means they will decide what is the thing to do, not you.

What is out there the govt runs, that is great and reduces costs?  NOTHING.

MP

[franco6]

when we lived in canada i had surgery .paid nothing .when my first son was born all doctors visits were free i did pay 5 dollars for a private room for my wife and baby. when we left the hospital no papers to sign , nothing. what government bureaucracy?
 

[G-Man]

I think everyone wants health care reform.  The problem is we have all dealt with the government since birth and most of us are not interested in government run health care.  My parents are both on medicare and find it very difficult to see a doctor in the area they live.  Most doctors are not accepting new medicare patients do to the low payments from the government.  My Grandfather died while waiting to get surgery thru the VA system due to a paperwork problem that took them over a year to fix.  I want insurance and health care reform.  I also want far fewer dealings with government than I currently have.

Your post backs up a previous post of mine regarding the rationing practices of the gov't.  Pay the Docs a fee that's not worth it and they just won't see the patients.   For the life of me, I can't understand why the folks that are for the presidents vision of gov't run health care (it is all out there on youtube for your listening pleasure) are blind to the consequences of it all.  No matter who says it, or how loud they say it, or how many times they say it, the pro Obama folks continue to deny reality.

[lynn]

I particularly do not like the idea of someone deciding my level of health care and options based on what my income level is. 

I live in Canada. That said you do have someone who decides it the insurance company who needs to make a profit (not that i have an issue with that as a stock holder but when i get denied as a policy holder it does) Here i go to the doctor when i need to or to the hospital when needed and i am treated by need not by who can pay.
 To put it another way first question in the hospital here is what is wrong not how will you be paying for this?  Can you say the same?
Yes there is cost issues but be honest when are there not cost issues? 
 

[razor]

#1. the politicians don't give a hairy rat's butt about everyone having healthcare!!! THEY WANT POWER AND CONTROL OF MORE MONEY!!!

#2. the type of health care they are talking is unconstitutional!! (I don't know about you, but that's very important to me)  The federal gov. does not have the authority to run or compete with private businesses.

#3. the shear magnitude of the program would be bigger than any other government agency!!! Think about it,...there is no way the government has shown they could possibly run a program that large with ANY KIND of efficiency!  Not to mention the country doesn't have the money. 

In conclusion.   The malpractice reform and the portability from state to state/ job to job needs to take place.  But if they really want to help people be able to get and afford healthcare and healthcare insurance, all they have to do is make every dollar spent on healthcare or insurance TAX DECUTABLE for both businesses and individuals.  The people who want it can get it, and the people who don't want it don't have to. Added benefit is since illegals don't pay taxes, we are not subsidizing them. 

But, getting a tax credit for health care costs ain't gonna happen. Know why?  SEE #1.

[Chrisj CMA]

#1. the politicians don't give a hairy rat's butt about everyone having healthcare!!! THEY WANT POWER AND CONTROL OF MORE MONEY!!!

#2. the type of health care they are talking is unconstitutional!! (I don't know about you, but that's very important to me)  The federal gov. does not have the authority to run or compete with private businesses.

#3. the shear magnitude of the program would be bigger than any other government agency!!! Think about it,...there is no way the government has shown they could possibly run a program that large with ANY KIND of efficiency!  Not to mention the country doesn't have the money. 

In conclusion.   The malpractice reform and the portability from state to state/ job to job needs to take place.  But if they really want to help people be able to get and afford healthcare and healthcare insurance, all they have to do is make every dollar spent on healthcare or insurance TAX DECUTABLE for both businesses and individuals.  The people who want it can get it, and the people who don't want it don't have to. Added benefit is since illegals don't pay taxes, we are not subsidizing them. 

But, getting a tax credit for health care costs ain't gonna happen. Know why?  SEE #1.

Razor I think you make great points.  The American People need to keep the objections LOUD and we will topple this ugly thing..........reform needs to be done, Obama isint pushing reform hes pushing total annihilation of the best medical system in the world

[Bob E.]

Your post backs up a previous post of mine regarding the rationing practices of the gov't.  Pay the Docs a fee that's not worth it and they just won't see the patients.   For the life of me, I can't understand why the folks that are for the presidents vision of gov't run health care (it is all out there on youtube for your listening pleasure) are blind to the consequences of it all.  No matter who says it, or how loud they say it, or how many times they say it, the pro Obama folks continue to deny reality.

Rationing by the Government:  Currently, payment for services is rationed by CEO's of the Insurance Companies who have a profit motive for denying payment.  So that is the difference?  And as stated above by others, as soon as you need to use your insurance, you face possible repurcussions of increased premiums or potentially dropped coverage all together.  And if you do get dropped, no other insurance will pick you up due to "pre-existing conditions".  Insurance companies of all sorts (health, home-owners, auto, mal-practice, etc.) are all guilty of similar practices.

Paying Docs lower fees:  This already happens with the current insurance companies.  Doctors, in order to be in-network, agree to pre-set fees that they will charge for their services.  I have had doctors and dentists actually try and pass whatever was not covered on to me.  For example, I had to have a tooth filled.  I forget the actual numbers, but let's say it was $100.  I paid my $15 co-pay and the dentist charged the insurance company $85.  However, the insurance company only paid $70 for the filling as their pre-set fee.  So I got a bill from my dentist for the remaining $15.  I had to argue with the dentist over the $15 and he eventually (reluctantly) waived the fee.  But then I'm out looking for a new dentist because of it.  And now, we are going through the exact same thing with my wife's counselor.  She charges something like $95 for a 1-hour session.  Copay is $20, and the insurance company pays $57.  So there is a $18 balance that is left over...so far she hasn't sent us a bill for it, but we get a notice from the insurance company that we may be liable for those charges.

Denying Reality:  With all due respect, G-Man, your reality is obviously different from Momz's and many of the people struggling with this issue.  Being in the medical field, I am sure you have more of an insiders view as to how things work...and perhaps why they don't.  But you cannot argue that his situation doesn't illustrate the serious problems with the current health insurance industry.  My reality is that I'm a Civil Engineer and have been working for over 14 years.  In that time, my health insurance benefits (not including dental, vision, disability, etc.) have gone from being totally covered by my employer to now costing me about $4500 per year for family coverage.  And I know that my employer's contribution has increased significantly as well...they reported that it went up over 60% one year.  In that same time, my deductibles have also increased significantly and my co-pays have nearly tripled.  And as a result, my employer shops our insurance benefits out every couple of years or so...so much for the arguement that I can keep my insurance if I like it.  And as a further result, I get to change primary care physicians every few years because the networks change...so much for keeping my doctor if I like him.  I am blessed enough to make a decent salary, so I can afford my benefits, but it is a significant portion of my net pay.  And it is little consolation knowing that should push come to shove and I lose my job or get really sick or injured, that my insurance company that I and my employer have been paying significant amounts of money could just deny coverage.

As I see it, many of the arguements against government-run health care already exist.  I too have reservations about this being a government-run system.  However, history is showing that the private sector insurance companies are unable to operate in a manner that is fair or sustainable (kinda like Wall Street).  And as it is, anything that the government does to cut costs, I believe will ultimately be sucked up by the insurance companies as added profit.  So I don't know what other solutions are out there.  I agree that tort reform is needed to reduce mal-practice insurance costs...assuming that the insurance companies pass along those savings to the doctors that purchase the insurance.  I also agree that there needs to be some reform to the administrative procedures that doctors must deal with to get paid from all of the different insurance companies they deal with.  Maybe there can be some standardization of forms and protocol between all of the insurance companies.  But these are really only scratching the surface of the problems.  Beyond that, I don't know of any other things that can really be done that will have much impact...without something much more drastic such as a total overhaul of the industry.

[Bob E.]

Razor I think you make great points.  The American People need to keep the objections LOUD and we will topple this ugly thing..........reform needs to be done, Obama isint pushing reform hes pushing total annihilation of the best medical system in the world

I agree we have some of the best health care in terms of innovation, technology, etc. in the world.  But let's not confuse the health care system with the health insurance system.  I think the big problems are with the health insurance system.  And the results of these problems are the lower standings in terms of where we rank against other countries when it comes to life expectancy, etc. because people do not have access to the best and most innovative health care practices.  Even people who are insured are often denied these services because the insurance company considers those services as "experimental" or because there are less expensive treatments...even though those treatments may be less effective than the newer treatments.

[Charlie]

Food for thought....  Bob E has made many good observations.  G Man made many good observations.  Momz made many good observations.  Chris  too.  It seems to me like the present health care system does not work for the Insurance Companies, the Doctors, the Hospitals, the insured, or the government.  In every situation, someone is taking advantage of someone else, rather than taking care of the business of Healthcare for the individual.

The question is....... How do we as a people meet the obligations to the individual while making a profit for the Insurance companies, the Doctors, the Hospitals, etc.  Frankly, I think one act is always counter-productive to the others.  What is the most important result that we as a people should be addressing?

[f-Stop]

Bottom line:  The system is broke and needs to be fixed!  Momz has a text book example of just how broken it is!

As a small business owner, my single biggest expense is my health insurance premium.  My business partner and I spend more on our familie's health care coverage than we spend on our commercial auto coverage for six vehicles.  More than our fuel and maintenance costs.  More than our equipment liability, loss and damage coverages combined!  More than our warehouse and utilities costs...and so on!

I certainly do not have any answers, but I will not succumb to miss-information such as what is being propsed is illegal aliens being able to just get free health care...that is just simply not true!  Or, completely dismiss any kind of reform discussion by shouting down an open dialogue...not real sure what that accomplishes.

I will do this - let my representatives know my issues - try to have an open dialogue with them about health care coverage reform - and maybe come up with some ideas on fixing this thing.  I think we all want the same thing which is affordable health care for all citizens.

[Bob E.]

Food for thought....  Bob E has made many good observations.  G Man made many good observations.  Momz made many good observations.  Chris  too.  It seems to me like the present health care system does not work for the Insurance Companies, the Doctors, the Hospitals, the insured, or the government.  In every situation, someone is taking advantage of someone else, rather than taking care of the business of Healthcare for the individual.

The question is....... How do we as a people meet the obligations to the individual while making a profit for the Insurance companies, the Doctors, the Hospitals, etc.  Frankly, I think one act is always counter-productive to the others.  What is the most important result that we as a people should be addressing?

Agreed.    And unfortunately, the scales are currently tipped heavily in the insurance company's favor.  Tipping those scales back more towards a balance of everyone will obviously hurt the insurance industry the most and I don't believe they will ever let that happen.  They will use their significant $$ power to buy the politicians to rule in their favor.  The politicians will then pass some bs legislation that accomplishes nothing, but they will then pat themselves on the back and say, "See, we passed health care reform for our constituents."  I think this is why people are so jaded and angry.  Everyone pretty much knows how this will turn out.  

[Bob E.]

Here's a thought...maybe they should hold a series of prime-time televised debates to discuss the facts (or their version of them) like the run up to the presidential election.  Then, guage where the people are 9-12 months from now.

[Jeff K]

My opinion
Health care is NOT a right. No one deserves health care just for being alive.
Health care is a service. You get what you pay for. If you work you can go to McDonald's to eat, and if you work harder/smarter you get to move up to OutBack.
I don't see them handing out cars for free (yet), and I don't see them handing out Cadillacs to everyone.

If you want good health care, a nice house, a fine car, a nice vacation, etc. WORK FOR IT.
If you are happy with taking the bus, living in a shack, scraping by from check to check, that is fine too, just don't begrudge the people that want/get more.

I had a guy on the line blow up at me the other day, he was mad because it was so hot on the production floor, he told me "just go back and sit in your air conditioned office, and watch us sweat through your window" I told him "we both made career choices, I'm where I want to be, and you are where you wanted to be" I like my choice.

Years ago my son came home from school with "share the wealth" stuck in his head, his teacher had put this crap in his head, So I explained it to him.
"You have been working to buy a car correct?"
"yep"
"what are you going to buy?"
"a Mustang"
"Nope sorry you can't have a Mustang"
"Why not"
"You don't have enough money"
"yes I do"
"No, your sister needs a car too, and she doesn't have a job, so you'll need to buy two Geo metros"
He said "But that isn't fair!!!"
And I said "Exactly!"
He's been on the right side of the fence ever since that moment.

I had nothing handed to me. I had to move away from friends and family to pursue a career, and it was a rough time, but we made it to a comfortable spot in life.

I do believe that there needs to be changes made to help reduce the cost of health care, but why should I have to foot the bill to "level the playing field" when I am happy with what I have?

Free Health care is only free to the people with no money, everyone else will have to pay, one way or another we will pay.

[franco6]

  should we change that to survival of the richest! hope your good luck follows you all the way
but you are a motorcyclel  rider, are you not?

[Varmintmist]

Valk boy,
Do you think you might pay less if you were able to bundle with other like companies? You cant, BY LAW. The ins co's are not allowed to sell you a policy like that. Do you think you could get a better deal of you were able to shop for ins. out of state?, You cant BY LAW.

The "private" sector ins. co's are so regulated that you get stuck with what they ARE ALLOWED to sell.

Secondly to whom it may concern,

What makes you think that it will cost less and you will get more with a govt. run system? Name one Govt. run system that is NOT a money pit. In the world, anywhere.

Thirdly, to the Canuk,

I am glad you did OK, that actress, Natasha Richardson, who rapped her head in a skiing accident would be alive today if she had had her spill in Vail instead of in your country. A CT scan would have been done here as a matter of course, not observation.
In the US, you will get treatment first, unless you go to the hospital that Mrs. Obama was hired to keep indigents out of, then they will bill you or your insurance company.

As to DR's trying to bill outside what they accepted, that is normal. They are to accept the ins if that is the deal the insurance co made with them. Stuff happens, your plan isnt my plan, they have to go through all of them to figure it out also.


The bill is posted in its entirety on the internet. People are shouting down their reps BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT IS IN THE BILL and are being lied to.

[Chrisj CMA]

Razor I think you make great points.  The American People need to keep the objections LOUD and we will topple this ugly thing..........reform needs to be done, Obama isint pushing reform hes pushing total annihilation of the best medical system in the world

I agree we have some of the best health care in terms of innovation, technology, etc. in the world.  But let's not confuse the health care system with the health insurance system.  I think the big problems are with the health insurance system.  And the results of these problems are the lower standings in terms of where we rank against other countries when it comes to life expectancy, etc. because people do not have access to the best and most innovative health care practices.  Even people who are insured are often denied these services because the insurance company considers those services as "experimental" or because there are less expensive treatments...even though those treatments may be less effective than the newer treatments.

You are exactly right.......BUT, If Obama succeeds the government will eventually control all the coverage, and how much is payed and charged and taxed and made.......there will be no incentive to innovate because people do that to profit from it as well as to benefit society. 

When it becomes a social program run by the government it will be out of cash, full of waste and fraud, barley keeping up and no way will it be the example to the world as it is now.

Yes Insurance is out of control and needs to be fixed, but the government running it is the opposite of fixing it IMHO

[razor]

Can anyone of you that are for this healthcare bill look me in the eye and tell me why I should be FORCED to pay for your healthcare?

Also, if this passes, and I pray to God it doesn't, if it's going to be so great ,then why are government employees and particulary congress not going to have the same healthcare system as the rest of us?

If you can't answer both of those questions, then the bill is obviously going in the wrong direction.

[BF]

Can anyone of you that are for this healthcare bill look me in the eye and tell me why I should be FORCED to pay for your healthcare?

Yes.......for the same reason that you pay for other people's children's education with your property/school taxes.  What's the difference.?

I'm not totally sold on "THIS" bill, but I firmly believe that the system is broke and needs fixin'. 

One of the things that I have a hard time with the issue of health care insurance is.....is why is it tied to employmenet?   Are you only worthy of care if you're employed?  Are you no longer worthy if you not employed? 

Like I said, I'm not sold on this bill.  I just wish I was smart enough to have all the answers. 

[razor]

Can anyone of you that are for this healthcare bill look me in the eye and tell me why I should be FORCED to pay for your healthcare?

Yes.......for the same reason that you pay for other people's children's education with your property/school taxes.  What's the difference.?

That's not right/fair either.  They ought to have to pay for their own children, or not have them.

I think you ought to have to pay for the gas and tires and insurance for my Valk......what's the difference?

[valkmc]

I don't want to pay for law enforcement, why should I pay to protect others, I can protect my family. I also don't want to pay for people in other countries. Who cares if everyone in the middle east kills each other. I don't want my tax money spent over there. Lets go back 2000 years and get rid of all government.

Big business, gov. it doesn't matter our country is backward when it comes to healthcare unless you are rich. Look around healthcare cost are out of control for police officers, fireman, teachers, etc. Maybe all of them should have considerd different professions.

Horror story for today: Good friend of mine, rides a wing and is 60. He dedicated his working life to education. He now has liver cancer, did he have a few beers in his life sure, is he a drunk no. He gets a full body test of some kind and they find the cancer. He is being rushed now to sugery and is lucky to be going to one of the leading hospitals in Florida. Yesterday the surgeon who is going to remove half of his liver orders a more specific test. My friend gets a call at home and is informed by the surgeons office BCBS will not pay for the 2nd test. They are so worthless they don't even call him, because they are pukes. Now this to me is f'd up. the man has paid his insurance and when he needs it they don't seem to care.

[Chrisj CMA]

lets not get wrapped around the axle about never paying for someone else.  We all (most all) pay taxes and the government pays for social programs so in fact we all pay for stuff that other people may get for free.  That is what a society is.  I have no problem with the government giving assistance to Americans that have little to no resources.  Americans..........not illegals

The idea is those getting help should be encouraged to get off of the "dole" and become a contributing part of society.  If there is no incentive for that then we are doing a dis-service to those we are tying to help. 

Medical insurance is not a right.  Medical care is never free so it should cost everyone that gets it something.  Instead of focusing on how many people dont have medical insurance, I wish the government would do one of its first responsibilities..........fix the economy so more people can make a living and afford insurance.  Instead the government is keeping people out of work and then putting a moral guilt trip on everyone else because so many people have no insurance.

For what they are willing to spend to cover the uninsured they could pay small businesses a couple million each to create long lasting real jobs and let people buy their own insurance.....

Its not about that......its about power and control

[Hog Killer DS0048]

I agree about not wanting the government running health care. I work with a disabled veteran who goes to the VA for his treatment. Even with an appointment, the wait is hours. Expand that by millions and see what happens.

[Sludge]

Yes.......for the same reason that you pay for other people's children's education with your property/school taxes.  What's the difference.?

Bad comparison.  The education thing is so that innocent children with POS parents have a shot.

[Scanner]

Man, I tried to stay out of this ...but...

Do you want unvaccinated kids sitting next to yours in school?  How about a homeless person with Tuberculosis sitting next to you on the bus?  Your cook or busboy with AIDS?

You know, we already have public financing for Medicare and Medicade.

Care is rationed now by the insurance companies who owe it to their shareholders to minimize any care you receive to lessen expenses and "enhance shareholder value".

And yes, it's not about the quality of care in the US, it's about access.

[Bob E.]

JeffK:  Your point is well taken.  But you and me paying for non-workers isn't the entirety of the problem.  What about people like me who are college educated, working more than full time making a good salary, paying a significant portion of that salary for my insurance, and have to worry that if and when I ever need it, they aren't going to provide the service that I paid them for?  What about people like my wife who also had a good job as a teacher, but they closed her school and laid her off, cutting off her insurance for her and her daughter?  Sure they offered her COBRA, but the cost was almost what she made in unemployment.  And, she didn't choose to get laid off.  She wanted to work, sending out resume's everywhere, working as a substitute teacher for a couple years trying to get into a couple school districts, often driving about 45 miles each way for what amounted to about $50 after taxes for the day...and she did get a 2nd part time job to make ends meet for awhile...it's not like she was just being lazy living off of everyone else, but for that entire time she was unable to get insurance from her employer.  So she had to go out and buy a minimal plan just to cover anything catastrophic until we got married.  And even that was so expensive that I was actually the one making most fo those payments.  What about guys like MOMZ or guys like valkmc's friend who have been paying for insurance for years and years, but get screwed when they actually need it?  If you think you are OK just because you chose a better profession than some others, I think you are fooling yourself. I just hope you never really need your insurance.

valkmc:  Sorry to hear about your friend.  His situation demonstrates how bad the current insurance situation really is.  But I have to disagree with some of the other points you made.   I think if nobody paid for police, society would degrade to the point that I think you might have a hard time protecting your family.  It would be alot more difficult, that's for sure.  And about 2000 years ago, there was still big government...ever hear of the Roman Empire?  They collected alot more taxes than we pay now.  

And by the way, I'm not necessarily arguing in favor of a government run health care system.  But, I do think the entire industry needs overhauled in some way.  Admittedly, I do not know what that will take or what the best solution is.

[MP]

For all of you who think gov't health care would be a GREAT thing, PLEASE look into the health care on the Indian Reservations in this country.
That has been gov't health care 100% for over 100 years by treaty.

It is a DISASTER!

Why do you think it will be different if we all have it?  The gov't screws everything up.  The larger the business, the larger the screw up.  This will be the largest to date.

And, there will be NO going back.  If in 5 years  it is failing, we cannot turn back the clock.

At the very least, let's take our time.  Work out the details.  Be sure everyone understands exactly what is in the bill.  No one knows.  Get it right, and have a healthy debate.

Why is the Obama admin so afraid of debate, and taking time?

MP