Front wheel issue?

[cogsman]

Hi All,

Please have a look at my YouTube video of what's going on with my front wheel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl0OYIb16Hs

What do you think?

[Paladin528]

You certainly have an issue.  Your wheel should turn far easier than in the video through the whole rotation.   I seems you may have a dragging brake which would cause the rotor to warp.  The rotor may be a symptom of another issue with the brakes.

[BudMan]

You certainly have an issue.  Your wheel should turn far easier than in the video through the whole rotation.   I seems you may have a dragging brake which would cause the rotor to warp.  The rotor may be a symptom of another issue with the brakes.

+1
Most likely a rotor/break problem, but I would also remove the pads and make sure the wheel spins completely freely  with absolutely no dragging.

[John Schmidt]

I agree, pull the calipers on one side then the other. If there's a problem that will help narrow down which side. If the wheel now turns freely, I'd look at how the wheel is mounted. From the shot taken of the right side, it would appear someone didn't reinstall the wheel correctly.

[salty1]

Thanks for the youtube. IMO, I would determine which side has the drag, then loosen the axle nut and the pinch bolts on the side that's dragging. Shift the wheel to one side or the other and see this will stop the drag. Have you followed Honda's procedure for remounting the tire on the bike and securing it? As you may know it's quite specific and needs to be followed closely. Im not discounting you may have wrapped rotor. FWIW

[cogsman]

I have never removed or remounted the wheel myself. Though it seems I'm about to learn!

[Firefighter]

Sounds like your brake pads are causing the drag, seems I can hear them on the video. Could be OK if it has been awhile since you rode it, just a little rust on the rotor will cause that. Like others said, remove the calipers and see, two bolts each, might have to pry the pads back to remove or twist the caliper to force the pad back. Make sure you don't pull the brake handle while the caliper is removed !

Normally if your rotor is warped you will feel a pulse while braking, you must have had a car do that before.

Most important: get a Honda repair manual, there is order of assembly, bolt torque values, assembly procedures that no one can know with out the manual. There is also Carl Kulow Valkyrie Maintenance Guide on our VRCC site which explains step by step how to remove and install your wheel. Let us know what you find.

[indybobm]

After watching the video several times, I am not sure that the wheel binds up in the same location every revolution. After looking at the closeup of the right side fork/wheel,  I would definitely check the right side wheel bearing for being bad.

It is my belief (and others who have posted the same information) that the front wheel installation procedure in the Honda Service Manual and echoed in Shop Talk is wrong. It says that after you torque the axle bolt on the right side, to apply the front brake, bounce the forks and then tighten the right fork pinch. Once the axle bolt is torqued, the right fork is captured in the entire axle assembly that extends from the big part of the axle on the left, through the speedometer drive, axle bearings and spacer, right side wheel spacer, right fork and finally the axle bolt. Once the axle bolt is torqued, the right fork cannot/will not move anywhere.  The right side pinch bolts does need to be torqued after the axle bolt is torqued but bouncing the forks at this point is not needed. It is the left fork that needs the pinch bolts loosened so that when you apply the front brake and bounce the forks, the left caliper centers itself over the left rotor.
My previous bike was a 1997 Honda VFR750F (before my 1st Valk). It had a front fork assemble very much like the Valkyrie. The VFR Service Manual says to loosen the LEFT fork and bounce the front end to align the forks, not the right one.
There is a common misconception that the axle somehow 'seats' against a stop in the left fork. Actually, there is no lip in the left fork. The big end of the axle can go completely though the left fork.

[Firefighter]

The book says to torque the left pinch bolts only, then torque the right axle bolt, then after the bouncing is done torque the right pinch bolts.

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

I'm with Indybobm on this. The grab or catching was not always at the same spot while rotating and the right side axle pic looked cocked and I would suspect wheel bearings. That's my take shooting in the dark. When you get it going, let us know what was up.

[cogsman]

You got it. Surgery begins today.

[cogsman]

So as I begin the operation, I started by checking for that air leak.

I added air and soaped up the wheel, but I get no bubbles. I can hear air escaping and it seems to be coming from the valve stem.

https://youtu.be/-Dqhu0xqJJc

When I cap it, it still leaks. If I push the stem towards the rim (down) it leaks more. If I push it back (away from me) it seems to slow... thoughts?

[Firefighter]

Replace with metal 90 degree stems.

[cogsman]

I pulled the right (when sitting on the bike) caliper off, and here are the results:

https://youtu.be/JTmfjXTneLw

Is that drag I'm still hearing normal, or would there potentially be an issue with the left side too?

[Firefighter]

The pads always drag a little, there is no spring to retract them. Like I said if the rotors are warped the bike would be pulsing when you are braking. My opinion all is good. Look at the pads to determine if they are worn and need replacement, they have groves that let you know if its time to replace. While your wheel is off check the bearings.

These rotors should not warp as they are not mounted like car rotors are. 2 cents worth

[BudMan]

So as I begin the operation, I started by checking for that air leak.

I added air and soaped up the wheel, but I get no bubbles. I can hear air escaping and it seems to be coming from the valve stem.

https://youtu.be/-Dqhu0xqJJc

When I cap it, it still leaks. If I push the stem towards the rim (down) it leaks more. If I push it back (away from me) it seems to slow... thoughts?

"Friends don't let friends ride on OEM valve stems." 

[indybobm]

The book says to torque the left pinch bolts only, then torque the right axle bolt, then after the bouncing is done torque the right pinch bolts.

As I previously said, the right fork is captured in the tightened axle assembly.  Of course you need to tighten the right fork pinch bolts after the axle bolt is torqued but bouncing the forks is not going to move the right fork at all.

Try this, take a bolt , washer and nut. Put the washer between the head of the bolt and the nut. Tighten the nut. Now see if you can move the washer. The washer=right fork.

When installing the front wheel, the left fork pinch bolts are tightened to enable you to torque the axle bolt. At this point the left fork is probably not in the correct position.
After you torque the the axle bolt, the right fork pinch bolts are tightened.
At this point, loosen the left fork pinch bolts, apply the front brake and pump the forks.
Then tighten the left fork pinch bolts.
The left caliper (attached to the left fork) must be centered over the rotor or you get the clicking noise when going down the road.
Loosening the left fork pinch bolts, applying the front brakes and pumping the forks centers the caliper over the rotor. Then tighten the left fork pinch bolts.

P.S. The reason I brought this up is that cogsman said that he might remove the front wheel. The incorrect installation instructions in the service manual causes problems when the left fork ends up not being positioned properly.

[cogsman]

Here we are, both calipers off:

https://youtu.be/CxrdRq5N8ww

[indybobm]

Looks like the bearings are not the problem. The right side might have looked weird before because the dust seal might be a little deformed.  According to the service manual, brake rotor runout limit is 0.30mm (0.012). The floating calipers take care of some of the runout.

[indybobm]

This is a good source for the metal 90 degree valve stems. At only $2.00 each I usually buy 5 at a time and give some to friend.

https://www.jakewilson.com/p/1753/19082/Myers-90%C2%B0-Tubeless-Chrome-Valve-Stem?term=valve+stem

[WintrSol]

It seems you do have a warp in the right rotor; to prove it, tape a pointer to the fork so that the tip nearly touches the rotor. A dial gauge for measuring runout would be perfect, but not many have them. Rotate the wheel, and watch the gap between the pointer and the rotor; you will probably see it get closer and farther away, so mark the closest point(s) and farthest point(s), then measure with a micrometer, if you have access to one. You may find the rotor is simply warped, or the thickness varies; I guess it isn't really important which, as either means a new rotor is in your future.

As to putting the wheel back on, be sure to check the gap between the caliper and rotor, per the manual. You can have the rotor rivets hitting the caliper, which makes an awful noise.

[Firefighter]

indybobm, I have always followed the manual, and this is the first I have heard the manual way is not correct. What kind of problems does this incorrect procedure cause? What I mean is what does the bike do or how does the bike act that is wrong?

Sorry can't think of a better way to word my question.

[Karen]

I have never had an issue with the procedure in the manual; it is correct. I have found that if the axle is not driven in 100%, you will get drag problems even if you follow the procedure (the wheel will not be centered). Replace your wheel bearings. Asshole in a repair shop left the pinch bolts at the bottom of the forks loose, and I had to rebuild the forks, and replace the bearings. If the pinch bolts were not tight when your tire went flat, it could have shifted the axle enough to cause problems. Or it could be warped rotors, but you should have had an issue before the flat, were that the case

[indybobm]

As long as the axle bolt is tight, the axle (and Wheel) cannot shift at all if the pinch bolts are loose. The only thing that can happen is the left fork can move left or right on the axle. When you tighten the axle bolt, the axle, wheel, and right fork become one assembly. Do a search on clicking noise from front brake and see how many times the incorrect procedure causes a problem.

[Karen]

Please loosen your pinch bolts until they are ready to fall out, then go for a ride. I rode from New York to Boston that way. The vibration will kill you. And the bearings. And the fork seals.

[indybobm]

I agree but this discussion was not about loose pinch bolts. I brought up an issue abou proper front wheel installation.

This is my last comment on this. I attached a link to a previous post on VRCC. Read it to the end.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,45929.0.html

I apologize if I seemed to come on too strong and for inadvertantly hi-jacking this post but I have been in technical support all of my professional life and proper procedures are important to me.

[salty1]

Not absolutely sure because of camera movement, but that right rotor sure looks alot out of tolerance. 

[Icelander]

An easy way to see how much runout you have is to cut a small piece of manilla folder (stiff cardboard) and scotch tape it to the fork so that the flat edge of the cardboard is perpendicular to the rotor. turn the wheel and if the rotor pushes against the cardboard, move the cardboard so that it just touches. Once you've found the high spot, one full rotation will show you how much wobble is in the rotor. If you've got an engineering ruler, you can find the biggest gap between the cardboard and the ruler and get a decent idea of what your runout is.

The measurement eliminates all the guesswork.

Icelander

Edit A picture is worth a thousand words. Please excuse the dirt. She's a daily driver.
https://goo.gl/photos/JoKFV6tskcPwT4Qt6

[gordonv]

If I saw in the video correctly, the axle isn't seated all the way in. As seen on the LH side of the bike, before the camera panned out.

I would first remove the axle, and follow the install instructions, re-set it. Then test again.

[Paladin528]

Watching the video look at the bottom of the rotor when the wheel is spinning not the top.  The rotor has dirt on the edge which makes it look warped.  The shadow on the bottom negates the look of the dirt. 
I would have a look at the caliper pistons and make sure they are not dirty and move freely.  If they get sticky they will not retract well and will drag.  Also a good flush of the brake system with clean fluid can make a difference.
I would as for the way it is dragging there may be a slight warp that is within tolerance that will do that.  It doesnt take much.
if the calipers are free then the warp will push the piston in and alleviate the drag. 

[cogsman]

I hear what you're saying. I flushed the brakes at the beginning of the season. All looked fine. Here are two videos where I try and gauge the runout:

Left rotor:

https://youtu.be/2-cwrENUBIA

Right rotor:

https://youtu.be/ckLF-kAOQxI

[Cracker Jack]

I hear what you're saying. I flushed the brakes at the beginning of the season. All looked fine. Here are two videos where I try and gauge the runout:

Left rotor:

https://youtu.be/2-cwrENUBIA

Right rotor:

https://youtu.be/ckLF-kAOQxI

Before you go any further, I would position the indicator to check the runout on the wheel/rim itself. Don't know what could have warped both rotors without possibly damaging the wheel. You sure don't want to put new rotors on a warped wheel!

From what we're seeing, my guess is that the rotors were damaged/warped by some one who was changing a tire and laid the wheel down on the rotors and bent them.

[Icelander]

That right rotor looks almost like the edge of the rotor is rolled in (or that some meat has been ground off of the edge of the rotor)

Check to see how true the wheel is. Also check for bearing wobble. If you've got the wheel off the ground, you should be able to see if the wheel bearings have slop.

My feeling is that (if the wheel is running true) then the rotors will need replacement.

Icelander

[Paladin528]

The rotors on the Valk should be "floating" rotors.  meaning there is a hub and a ring joined by several round "rivets" this allows a little bit of float to compensate for for any misalignment.
I would say by the video that the Left Rotor is at or near the runout limit but the right rotor is outside the limit.  The wheel should have no impact on this.
My suggestion is to replace the rotors.  I hear tell the Goldwing rotors fit and are cheaper.

[cogsman]

Cheaper Wing rotors... that sounds promising!

[Ricky-D]

Check the runout of the rotor carriers themselves. If the carriers run true, it could simply be a little

misalignment of the rotor because of jamming when removing the calipers and can simply be returned

to normal with a little convincing with a rubber mallet. I think there is too much credence given to the

ill affects of a little bit of runout, that and which the floating calipers are completely able to compensate

for with no performance reduction of the braking ability. Making sure the calipers are able to move freely

as designed is a more important condition and should not be ignored.

***

[mustang071965]

have had this happen on many a truck i have worked on. over time contamination in the brake fluid causes rust and varnish to acumilate on the plunger. this causes it to not be able to retract back into the cylinder when brake pressure is removed. there for making the brakes drag harder due to unrelieved pressure. if you have or can get a repair kit ( o rings and dust seal ) for the cylinder. just r@r it and clean it up inside then due a light hone to the bore. replace the cylinder o ring and dust seal and she will work like new.

[Rio Wil]

have had this happen on many a truck i have worked on. over time contamination in the brake fluid causes rust and varnish to acumilate on the plunger. this causes it to not be able to retract back into the cylinder when brake pressure is removed. there for making the brakes drag harder due to unrelieved pressure. if you have or can get a repair kit ( o rings and dust seal ) for the cylinder. just r@r it and clean it up inside then due a light hone to the bore. replace the cylinder o ring and dust seal and she will work like new.

Can't say PLUS 1  +1+1+1+1+1 TOO MANY TIMES ON THE ABOVE SUGGESTION.

The seals on the caliper pistons do two things......first, they seal the fluid inside the caliper and secondly by their shape they actually pull the piston back into the caliper bore just a bit to relieve the pressure on the pads.  If the bore is gummed up a bit the seal can't do its secondary function......pop the pistons out and clean things up......