Transmission issues.

[mark81]

Back story
When i got the bike it had a kury heel toe shifter. Thought it was my heel of my boot catching on the rear peg causing unwanted shifting. It only happened a couple of times.  Removed it And still a few times it has "ghost shifted"  between 4th and 5th, sometimes into neutral. the last few weeks it has started to fall out of 2nd gear under heavy acceleration. Saw another post shortly after issue developed about the same thing and everyone said ignore it. It is developing into a more severe problem than every random once in a while. 

Questions
I had a similar issue when i got my old cb750c put together the first time and the research i did then people recommend under/back cutting trans gears?
What is this and how does it fix the problem?
Can it be done to a valk?
Are goldwing gl1500 transmission parts interchangeable?
Anybody have a junk motor lying around with good transmission they dont want?

When this happened on the 750 i had just put in a different motor since I had 3 laying around to choose from so i didn't do much research into repair.  The valk is still rideable at this point. I don't see it completely taking a crap in the near future but would like to have parts available beforehand since it is my daily driver and only vehicle at the moment.

[oldsmokey]

Its not do to all that high speed heavy haulin you do with that boat is it. I never looked into the differences with the wing, had thought they were the same, but my wing is older with 3 times the mileage (56k) on it and shifts quieter and smoother than the valk. Only had valk for several months and just put on combination boards with shifter. Still adapting to the girl a little at a time.

[mark81]

Oldsmokey, It may very well be due to the strain of a trailer. The original owner had the hitch put on and towed a matching trailer that made it through the next 2 owners before being separated shortly before I purchased the bike. About half of the 20+ thousand miles I've put on it in the last year was pulling a trailer whether the cargo trailer I bought or occasionally the boat.  The bike only had 40ish thousand put on it in 20 years then I've beat it for 20k in one year. I have definitely not babied this bike, ride it like you stole it.

[WintrSol]

Questions
I had a similar issue when i got my old cb750c put together the first time and the research i did then people recommend under/back cutting trans gears?
What is this and how does it fix the problem?

Have a look at #17 on this drawing: http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Motorcycle/1998/GL1500CT+A/TRANSMISSION/parts.html
It has teeth on its face that lock to similar teeth on #5 or #6 when you shift into 1st or 2nd; #17 slides on splines when shifting, and stops between the gears when in neutral or an upper gear. Parts #15 and #16 perform a similar function for their facing gears. Those facing teeth are slightly wedge-shaped, so the forces pull the gears more tightly together, if the shift fork doesn't get them all the way meshed. With age, the corners get rounded over when the gears clash during a shift, and can cause the gear to kick back out before the wedges pull them together. Undercutting involves restoring the wedge all the way to the end of the gear faces.

Can it be done to a valk?

Good question, as the grinding the process necessarily weakens the parts.

[mark81]

Wintersol, that link with your description . It all makes sense now. Thanks for the clarification on that process

[98valk]

"Also, shift forks wear out from riders resting their toe on the shift lever while riding. their experts warned that the use of heel-toe shifters is also responsible for shift fork damage, as your heal puts much more force on the shifter than your toe would."

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,27706.0.html
from the June '05 issue of motorcycle consumer news, by Fred Rau. He was the editor of Wing World magazine in '87, the news letter of the largest Gold Wing organization, the Gold Wing Road Riders Association (GWRRA), and now contributes to MCN.

"in '97 the GW recieved a fairly major upgrade that was, oddly enough not heralded by Honda. Honda quietly lifted the Valkyrie's main bearings, pistons, piston rings, con-rod bolts and valve springs into the '97 Wing, along with the smoother-shifting Valkyrie gearbox and the entire final drive unit. In addition, the clutch was strengthened, also."

Also from the article, 1) '88 through '94, 4th and 5th gear wear out at around 100k miles, gears were upgraded in '95 and newer. Also, shift forks wear out from riders resting their toe on the shift lever while riding. their experts warned that the use of heel-toe shifters is also responsible for shift fork damage, as your heal puts much more force on the shifter than your toe would. 2) speedo cable should be lubed every front tire change other wise they break at 100k miles. 3) final drive splines, maintenance should be done IAW honda service bulletin 97991-MAH-305.

[sandy]

If you want to look at the undercutting process, go to the GL1800riders.com forum and ask there. Some guy in FL does that for 1800 wings. He knows all the ins and outs.

[NewValker]

Hey Mark,  not saying that you don't have trans issues, but I have hit that "neutral" between 4-5 a few times. I panicked, thinking something is wrong. Then I noticed that everytime it happened, I was under load in 4th, pre-loading the shifter getting ready to go into 5th, hit a bump in the road which moved my foot just enuff to push the shifter up into that zone. Since I haven't pre-loaded going into 5th, it hasn't happened.
hopin for a quick,cheap fix for ya,
Craig

[mark81]

Yea the 4th-5th thing isn't that bad. Never hit neutral between those gears just shifted from one to the other all on its own. Maybe happened half a dozen times in the last 20k miles.  2nd to neutral is a newer more prominent issue. Under full throttle it slips back into neutral when when the revs get up there. Especially if I'm pulling a hill.  It's not a missed shift or accidental shift, I thought it was and thats why I removed the heel toe shifter, its in second gear solidly for a few seconds then falls into neutral. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

Yea the 4th-5th thing isn't that bad. Never hit neutral between those gears just shifted from one to the other all on its own. Maybe happened half a dozen times in the last 20k miles.  2nd to neutral is a newer more prominent issue. Under full throttle it slips back into neutral when when the revs get up there. Especially if I'm pulling a hill.  It's not a missed shift or accidental shift, I thought it was and thats why I removed the heel toe shifter, its in second gear solidly for a few seconds then falls into neutral. 

It does sound like you have transmission issues. But other than removal and inspection, I don't know anything you can do about it.

[WintrSol]

Shift fork damage is usually the precursor to rounding of the locking gear teeth; it was very common in the Honda twins in the '60s and '70s. The damage occurred most often in the 1st-2nd shifter fork, probably because riders were more likely to shift harder between those two gears, and to apply pressure in advance of that shift. Once you were in higher gears, there was more time between shifts, and shifting hard seemed to be less common. I replaced that shifter fork in my 305SH, and also in my first CB450 engine (along with the sliding and 2nd gears, in the latter case).

[Bagger John - #3785]

"Also, shift forks wear out from riders resting their toe on the shift lever while riding. their experts warned that the use of heel-toe shifters is also responsible for shift fork damage, as your heal puts much more force on the shifter than your toe would."...

Kick Shifter, Kury and M/C users please chime in:

How many miles on your bike, how many of those were with a heel-toe style shifter and have you ever had transmission issues?

[98valk]

another cause can be oil type used. also GW GL1500 sites talk about clutch plates getting sludge upped, most recommend some type of flush to fix. I would use either Auto-Rx or Amsoil or Redline oils, which have synthetic esters same as the RX but not as concentrated which will clean the plates. what is your present oil?

[Fazer]

Good luck with that Mark.  Transmission work is WAY beyond my abilities.

[mark81]

Its just nuts and bolts Greg, put it back same way you took it apart. Hard part is remembering how you took it apart and what bolts go where.

98valk, I have been running synthetic rotella t6 for about 15,000 miles amsoil before that.

[WintrSol]

"Also, shift forks wear out from riders resting their toe on the shift lever while riding. their experts warned that the use of heel-toe shifters is also responsible for shift fork damage, as your heal puts much more force on the shifter than your toe would."...

Kick Shifter, Kury and M/C users please chime in:

How many miles on your bike, how many of those were with a heel-toe style shifter and have you ever had transmission issues?

Also, boot size, relative to distance between shifter ends?

[oldsmokey]

Chiming in on the toe heel shifters. I have the Marland set up on a 94 wing, was not equipped on bike when I purchased used in 03. Had the set up on a 89, no issues. Recently installed M/C set up on a I/S that is new to me, much more leverage available do to length of design. Maybe because there is no plastic, I do hear the shift much more and seem to feel it more on Valk. Only 20k

[98valk]

Its just nuts and bolts Greg, put it back same way you took it apart. Hard part is remembering how you took it apart and what bolts go where.

98valk, I have been running synthetic rotella t6 for about 15,000 miles amsoil before that.

have u tried adjusting the shifter one spline either way?

[mark81]

When i removed the heel toe shifter I custom made a shift lever from my collection of spare cb750 parts. Fully shifting is not the issue.  It only comes out of gear when full throttle and above 5500rpm. When the engine is making power and there is a load whether hard acceleration or pulling a hill. 

[WintrSol]

That, to me, sounds like symptoms of a bent shifter fork, not allowing the sliding gear to fully mesh. It could be an issue with the cam/stopper that centers the drum in the gear position, though. This kind of thing was easy to address on the old twins - flip the engine over, take the bottom off, and there it all is. Not looking forward to a similar operation on this transmission.

[Savago]

Maybe a bit crazy, but.... why not reinstall the heel toe shifter and take the bike for a ride?

[buickid]

That, to me, sounds like symptoms of a bent shifter fork, not allowing the sliding gear to fully mesh. It could be an issue with the cam/stopper that centers the drum in the gear position, though. This kind of thing was easy to address on the old twins - flip the engine over, take the bottom off, and there it all is. Not looking forward to a similar operation on this transmission.

Not too hard on the Valk.  Drain the oil and coolant, take off the cover that the oil filter is attached to.  You have to remove the lower coolant hose and water pipes, but that's about it.  Make sure you have a replacement gasket and o-rings to go back together with.  (Don't forget the o-rings on the coolant pipes).  Doubt it's the arm that rides the star on the shift drum though.

[Bagger John - #3785]

A couple more bits to consider regarding heel-toe shifters:

I had them (AAA, M/C, Drag) on two GL1100s and a GL1200. Cumulatively, 200k+ miles and not one missed shift or slipped gear...no evidence of shifter fork problems.

I had the Kick Shifter on my two 2000s (Tourer and I/S) and never had an issue with missed shifts or pop-outs on the I/S. I did have a couple (1st-2nd) with the Tourer towards the end of my ownership but it was under very hard acceleration up a hill; both bikes had ~36k miles on them at sale dates.

I have those Kick Shifters on both of my current Valkyries - a '99 Tourer and an '01 I/S. As with the previous two, both have been set up so that they can be 'snicked' (rather than STOMPED) into gear - using no more force than absolutely necessary to make the change. They're also balanced to the point that their weight doesn't apply pressure to the stock shift lever unless heel or toe contact is made.

(FWIW, all my GL motors are run with Spectro or Honda semi-synthetic oil unless going on extended trips - when a full synthetic variant is warranted.)

RJ had one on MGM practically from the moment Chet made them available and to my knowledge he never had a transmission problem in the 18 or so years he owned the bike.

If 'excessive force' causes a bevy of shifter fork problems, darn near every Big Twin touring model ought to be coming into the shop for a tranny rebuild - yet few of them do, at least for that issue. Those Harley boxes shift with authority...their gears, shifter drums and changer mechanisms are very close in size and design to that of Honda's GL-series engine.

There's got to be something else at work here. Riding (preloading) the shifter, slamming it into gear (particularly during upshifts), a mechanism lacking lubrication which takes more force than usual to move...

[WintrSol]

That, to me, sounds like symptoms of a bent shifter fork, not allowing the sliding gear to fully mesh. It could be an issue with the cam/stopper that centers the drum in the gear position, though. This kind of thing was easy to address on the old twins - flip the engine over, take the bottom off, and there it all is. Not looking forward to a similar operation on this transmission.

Not too hard on the Valk.  Drain the oil and coolant, take off the cover that the oil filter is attached to.  You have to remove the lower coolant hose and water pipes, but that's about it.  Make sure you have a replacement gasket and o-rings to go back together with.  (Don't forget the o-rings on the coolant pipes).  Doubt it's the arm that rides the star on the shift drum though.

Not having looked at it, other than the photos in the manual, it's hard to assess whether the stopper could be an issue. It happened too often on the old twins, but the design has to be somewhat different, even though the same in function. Jumping out is a sign the gears are not fully engaged; until it is opened up, we won't really know what's up.

[mark81]

I can't put the heel toe shifter back on. I sold it to gabby who has a triked interstate and a more leisurely riding style than I do.  Let him know what I didn't like about it. My foot not fitting between the pegs and dragging it in the corners. Let him put on some miles at last years DRU and he was happy with it.

The kury shifter and rattlebars and other kick shifters  shifter work completely different.

Most other bikes have large floorboards with forward controls where you are not close to making contact with the shifter unless you mean to.

I agree with the fact something abnormal caused it. I dont know how the previous owners rode the bike but I know i had issues with how the kury shifter fit me and my riding style. I couldn't comfortably put my feet on the pegs without touching the shifter pegs which then turned into unintentionally resting my toe on the front peg after a couple hours of riding. That alone could have caused my issues. I had ground a good portion of the front peg off in hard left turns sometimes touching the road surface enough for it to upshift without my consent or use of the clutch. That'll make you pucker up in a hard turn and could have lead to problems. I found out the mounting bracket does not allow the factory footpeg to fold up and skim the road. It pretty much digs in and makes a mark in your underwear. When i put it on gabbys trike i found out if you have kury pegs with it they fold up fine, not that that will be an issue on his trike.

[Tfrank59]

I'm the guy who posted recently about  popping out of second gear on me once but it only happened once and I'm sure it was my fault I didn't  fully engage it. I've ridden several hundred miles since and I haven't had a problem.

That's a drag about that problem you have. There's really nothing you can do about it because it's going to require a full tear down of your engine and transmission to replace the worn parts I think you're just better off removing the heel-toe shifter and doing your best with a stock shifter. Take Extra Care going from 1st to 2nd and just hope for the best just my 1.5 cents