Stranded, need some wisdom from the collective

[sdv003]

Parked the bike at the store and went and picked something up.  When I got back, she fired right up, but I noticed a sound that seemed like the engine was knocking.  I thought it odd, but since I had recently adjusted the pilot screws, I thought maybe I screwed it up and I would check it when I got home.  Was riding across the parking lot and it died.  Still had lights but it was like the stop switch had been flipped.  It would start and idle just fine, but when I put it in gear and got it moving (not even enough to get my feet on the pegs) it would die.  Pull in the clutch, hit the starter and it would immediately fire, but begin to let the clutch out and get some load on the engine and it goes dead.

I am looking for ideas to try to get her home.  I'm sure I'll need some more ideas once I start wrenching on it.

Thanks in advance.

[ridingron]

kick stand switch?

neutral switch?   

[Beardo]

Issue with gas tank venting maybe? Sounds like it’s getting enough fuel to run, but not rev. Open the gas cap and stick a straw or something in it, see if it’ll keep running.

[sdv003]

Kickstand switch indicator lamp seems to be functioning correctly, so I'm discounting that.

Neutral switch failed recently and it indicates neutral all the time.  I think I'm OK there.

I'll give the tank thing a try.

[pago cruiser]

Went through something similar a few weeks ago - which had also happened a few years ago.  Check your handlebar kill switch.  Yes, it seems odd.  Around here, I believe dust is the culprit. 

Good luck - its a real pita when this happens away from home.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Sam, I second the fuel venting idea. Also, check your fuel selector. I used to have a problem with mine binding slightly and not letting fuel flow freely. Wish I was closer to help. Good luck. 

[Houdini]

If the fuel tank wasn't venting properly it would take a while to get a vacuum in the tank, it wouldn't happen immediately.

[sdv003]

Vented the tank, started it up and was able to ride it home without a problem.  I did have the tank off last weekend while I was diagnosing the neutral switch issue, so it wouldn't surprise me if I kinked the vent line.  It's going to get a thorough review this weekend.

I really appreciate all the ideas.  You guys are the best safety net there is for a bike old enough to vote.

[Gideon]

Vented the tank, started it up and was able to ride it home without a problem.  I did have the tank off last weekend while I was diagnosing the neutral switch issue, so it wouldn't surprise me if I kinked the vent line.  It's going to get a thorough review this weekend.

I really appreciate all the ideas.  You guys are the best safety net there is for a bike old enough to vote.

Let us know what you find. It may help others if they experience the same issue.

[sdv003]

Some new information...

When I vented the tank last night and rode home, the bike had set long enough to cool off.  I spent the early part of today making sure the vent tube wasn't kinked, verifying all of it.  I had no trouble starting it this morning, so I figured "problem solved".  Big mistake.  She quit on me again today.  I went out to the store again, getting the bike warmed up in the process.  Shut her down and came back to her 10 minutes later.  She started and was a little balky like before, but I was able to get her out on the road, rode a mile or so and then she quit like before.  This time she wouldn't fire at all, even to idle.  Imagine running the starter with the kill switch on or no fuel.  That's what she was doing.  Venting the tank didnt help.  I let her sit a couple of hours until she cooled off and she started right up and I rode her home.

It sure seems like temperature has something to do with it.  It's nice out (75* during the day, around 60 both nights when I got her started and home) and the cooling system is working correctly according to the temperature gauge.  I doubt it's hot enough for the fuel to boil in the line.  I was pretty careful to make sure the fuel lines were running downhill when I desmogged and put the Dan-Marc in. 

I'm starting to wonder if I'm getting fuel starvation.  The biggest suspect is the new Dan-Marc valve, so that's where I want to investigate first.  Here are some questions for those that have installed one.  The Dan-Marc is very quiet when it's operating, to the point where I can't tell it's doing anything.  Is that normal?  Is there a trick to being able to tell that it's working, beyond the fact that the bike is running?  Does it even sound reasonable that the Dan-Marc would have issues at higher temps?

I think that maybe I need to pull the Dan-Marc, replacing it with regular fuel line, and see if I have the problem.  The thought of dealing with that air box again is going to require a few beers tonight. 

As always, any thoughts are appreciated.

[WintrSol]

Do you recall, is the Dan-Marc is resting on the engine case, or is there an air gap?

BTW, a solenoid only makes a noise when it first turns on or off; like a starter relay, you may hear a click when it is powered, but there is no sound while it is on.

[sdv003]

It is not resting on the block.  It sits on top of one of the structural member that connects together the carbs on the left and the right.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I can't hear mine. Before I installed, I checked it with 12 volts and I could hear it then but not on the bike. I suspect it's working properly. After a couple years of mine being on I removed the air box to do something else ( I don't remember what now). But I noticed a kink in the fuel line. I was very thorough in making sure I didn't make it too long when installing it. But evidently I did. It was starving for fuel, but I don't know how not. It was kinked pretty good. I think the heat of the engine was making the line more flexible and easily kinked. I ended up making a new line as short as I possibly could.

[sdv003]

Did some more testing today.  Ran her around the neighborhood until she was warm.  Not a single issue.  Let her sit in the garage for 5 minutes and started having problems on start.  First time, she was upright and the starter would run, but no start.  I got off, putting her on the side stand, pulled plug 5 (right rear) put the boot on it and grounded it looking for a spark.  I didn't see one, but the lighting wasn't good for being certain none was there.  Replaced plug 5 and repeated with plug 6.  She started up, and I saw spark from the grounded plug.  Replaced the plug and started the bike again.  She started right up.  Straddled the bike and when I brought it upright, it died.  I was able to repeat that 2 more times.

I tried to confirm that I wasnt getting spark when she was warm and upright.  Put her on the jack and she started up.  Pulled a plug on each side and had spark (and she ran).  I havent been able to get anything that truly repeatable, other than she has to be warm and then shut down.  Very frustrating.

[Willow]

Some of the symptoms you describe sound like what happens when you have extra fuel line.  The fuel line, vacuum fed, on the Valk can endure no rises in the line.  It has to be straight and always flowing down.  Extra line results in bubbles blocking the line, diminishing flow.

[WintrSol]

Just for a lark, check the tilt switch; you never know.

[sdv003]

It's starting to look like no spark after she warms up and then sits for 5 minutes or so.  Put her on the jack, warmed her up, turned her off and 5 minutes later, no spark at plugs 5 and 3.  I'll be checking the others once I can get her started again.

[Firefighter]

I'm with WintrSol, if the engine dies when you stand up the bike, check the bank angle sensor.

[Pappy!]

By chance....did you install an inline filter? If so, remove it. Some filters are fine enough to not flow fuel when the fuel level is low.

Some of your symptoms also sound like "Heat Soak". A winter blend fuel during a heat wave or warm day will do exactly what you are describing. When the fuel has cooled off it will run the engine but as it warms it will vaporize (as opposed to staying liquid) as is is being lifted through the various circuits by vacuum.

[The emperor has no clothes]

It's starting to look like no spark after she warms up and then sits for 5 minutes or so.  Put her on the jack, warmed her up, turned her off and 5 minutes later, no spark at plugs 5 and 3.  I'll be checking the others once I can get her started again.

That's a strange one. Didn't you recently install a Temp Sensor ? I wonder if it went bad and is stopping the spark ?

[sdv003]

I did install a new fan switch a few months ago.  I'll check the bank angle sensor, as well as pull the tank and check the fuel line.  I'll also check the voltages at the coil and the pulse generator.

[Chrisj CMA]

The only thing that makes sense to me is a faulty ground and or failing battery

[Firefighter]

I always tell everyone this, but if you are losing ignition, the ground between the engine and frame can cause that, did on mine. Check voltage between the battery posts then check between battery positive and bike frame, should be the same. Some ignition parts get their ground through the frame. Try it when you are having the trouble, mine would run right sometimes only. I ran a separate wire from the battery ground  to the frame and my problems went away.

[sdv003]

I have verified the bank sensor is working properly.  I was able to get my hand into where the Dan-Marc is and I can feel it move.  The fuel line is level or downhill the entire way.  Will check the grounding and whether I have spark at any plug next time I warm it up.

[sdv003]

Rode it around to warm it up.  Noticed some very slight missing on occasion once it warmed up while riding it around the neighborhood.  Rode it into the garage and let it idle.  The fan cycled twice, and on the 2nd fan run she died.  Pulled the plugs and checked for spark.  I had spark.  Put the plugs back in and she fired again.  The fan cycled once, then before it came on the 2nd time, it died.  I got it to start again by just touching the start switch, but it didnt seem to fire until after I released it.  Couldn't repeat that, meaning it wouldnt start at all, but it sure has all the signs of a failing battery from what I've read here on the board.  That's the next thing I'll do.

BTW, I did check the ground and it is solid, with the readings from frame to V+ the same as V- to V+.

I'll check back once i get the new battery installed.

[Jess from VA]

but it didn't seem to fire until after I released it.


When the battery is just at the fail point (for Valkyrie ignitions, not totally), the starter may spin very strongly, but without sufficient juice for the ignition electronics, will not start.  But just as you release the start button, she may fire right up.

That is a very common thing with the Valkyrie and a just failing battery.  

The longer you run the bike on a failing battery, the harder it is on the alternator.

Changing the battery is easy, changing the alternator will make you old before your time.


I am thinking the fan part of your reported symptoms is simply the added juice/draw to run it (ergo, a failing battery).

BTW, assuming you are getting a new battery with the electrolyte on the side, be sure to follow the directions for charging .... in detail.  Do not stick in the permanent cell caps until after initial charge.  And use the correct charge amps for that initial charge.  It is essential and the most important charge the battery ever gets.

[Bighead]

Don't let Jess scare you. If it is an alternator it is not that bad. Bought an alternator for a '97 1500 wing and toom out old and put new one in,in under an hour. First time I had ever done it. Did have to take it back out a couple times to make sure things were lining up correctly. But not a bad job.  Just as some say that rubber boot on drive shaft is a bear and my first went on in under 5 minutes and the second took half that.

[sdv003]

I'm hoping just the battery.  This one is 2.5 years old, if the PO was telling the truth on a new battery.  That's an old battery here in the desert.  I guess we'll see.

[DK]

Connect the battery to a charger (not a maintainer) and see how it behaves, especially if it starts while cranking or after releasing the starter button.

[sdv003]

I'm curious.  Can anyone explain why the battery is such an integral part of the ignition system?  My wrenching experience is mostly cars, and the battery has only ever been needed for starting the vehicle.  What is different about the Valkyrie that requires not only the battery, but a healthy one.

Thanks.

[Firefighter]

My experience and what I mostly hear is the engine wont start on a weak battery because the starter pulls the battery voltage down too low for the ignition system to operate. The bike will usually run ok on a weak battery after being started if the alternator is good. I have a volt meter on my dash so I will know if I am having trouble. (piece of mind).

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'm curious.  Can anyone explain why the battery is such an integral part of the ignition system?  My wrenching experience is mostly cars, and the battery has only ever been needed for starting the vehicle.  What is different about the Valkyrie that requires not only the battery, but a healthy one.

Thanks.

As I understand it, a weakened battery doesn't have enough juice to fire the coils and turn the engine over at the same time. I would agree with this because I have had the bike start up right as I let off the starter when the battery was weakened. What is throwing me about your situation is it happens when your bike is warmed up. It should be easier to start not harder in that situation. When my batteries have started to go bad, it was harder to start when cold. When warmed up it started right up, until the battery got to the point of no return. If you still have the battery in the bike, you could test this by running it till its warmed again and won't restart. Then jump it with your non running car to see if it starts right up.

[WintrSol]

I'm curious.  Can anyone explain why the battery is such an integral part of the ignition system?  My wrenching experience is mostly cars, and the battery has only ever been needed for starting the vehicle.  What is different about the Valkyrie that requires not only the battery, but a healthy one.

Thanks.

As I understand it, a weakened battery doesn't have enough juice to fire the coils and turn the engine over at the same time. I would agree with this because I have had the bike start up right as I let off the starter when the battery was weakened. What is throwing me about your situation is it happens when your bike is warmed up. It should be easier to start not harder in that situation. When my batteries have started to go bad, it was harder to start when cold. When warmed up it started right up, until the battery got to the point of no return. If you still have the battery in the bike, you could test this by running it till its warmed again and won't restart. Then jump it with your non running car to see if it starts right up.

I have the same thought. As temperature rises, unless the oil is really thin, the engine should spin easier, and the battery can send more power; also, the resistance of the starter motor also rises (not much, but some). The only guess I have is the contact resistance of the various cables also rises, so a good polish on the battery terminals and ground cable at the frame/engine would help with that. Contact resistance in the run/stop switch could also be a factor, as the current through it heats it. Old coils could start failing with high temperatures, too, but that's not really vary common.

[Bagger John - #3785]

If not fuel-related, heat induced failures are almost always localized to the electrical system:

• Ignition pick-ups
• Coils
• ICM
• Alternator/charging output

In that order.

The last is the easiest to test for.

Have you checked the coil connections for integrity, corrosion, etc.?

[sdv003]

I have checked the coil connections.  They are tight and clean as far as I can tell.  We'll see what the new battery brings and go from there.

[sutterhome]

may want to check the big dog bone fuse for a hairline crack

[sdv003]

New battery, exhibits the exact same characteristics as the first time it stranded me, as in it will idle but dies under load.  The bike wasn't very warm when it started acting up.  Around 140* on the temperature gauge.

Checked the wishbone fuse, it is OK.

Alternator is putting out 14.3-14.4 volts.  I'm operating under the assumption that if it was unable to put out sufficient current, the voltage would sag.

Going to attempt to verify it's taking fuel.  I believe it is, but just to be sure.

Ordered a peak voltage tester.  I need that to run the tests for the pickups and for some of the coil tests.  This is starting to get annoying.

[The emperor has no clothes]

New battery, exhibits the exact same characteristics as the first time it stranded me, as in it will idle but dies under load.  The bike wasn't very warm when it started acting up.  Around 140* on the temperature gauge.

Checked the wishbone fuse, it is OK.

Alternator is putting out 14.3-14.4 volts.  I'm operating under the assumption that if it was unable to put out sufficient current, the voltage would sag.

Going to attempt to verify it's taking fuel.  I believe it is, but just to be sure.

Ordered a peak voltage tester.  I need that to run the tests for the pickups and for some of the coil tests.  This is starting to get annoying.

Sam, I think it's got to be a slightly kinked fuel line or a failing petcock. Also possibly cracked vacuum line to the petcock.

[sdv003]

When I desmogged, I converted the petcock to manual by moving the spring to force the membrane open.  Assuming I did that right, the petcock shouldn't be the issue.  I can't believe the line is kinked (though I will be checking) since with the inline valve, there isn't hardly enough hose to get a kink in it.  It's only about 6" long.  What I am going to do is make sure that the bike is taking fuel right up until it dies.  If I'm losing power on the Dan-Marc when it warms up, I should be able to tell that by it not drawing fuel for a while before it dies.  If I don't feel real confident that I'm getting adequate fuel flow, I'll pull the Dan-Marc and see if she runs OK.

[bikerboy1951]

Have you tried opening the carb fuel drains when the engine dies to see if fuel runs out of each of the six carbs.  Carry a straight blade screwdriver to open the drains the next time it happens.  That will give you immediate feedback as to whether it is a fuel starvation issue or not.

Brad