Leaking forks

[jabster]

Hi.

So I woke up the other morning to a sizeable puddle of fork oil on the left side of the bike (the pic looks kind of like it could be brake fluid, but I turned the wheel to take the picture, and the brake pressure and level are fine).

So I'm off to repair my forks. Is there anything I should be aware of besides what's in the repair manual?

FWIW, I did just get a Sealmate, but too late.  

I'm guessing just replace the seals and I should be fine?

1998 Tourer, ~ 35,000 miles.

Thanks,
John



https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZCkhssfJy9w8AVnr5

[carolinarider09]

I was just doing some research on fork seal replacement. I have a small dark patch under the left fork on my bike I notice this morning.  its not damp and I did not feel anything on the fork tubes when I felt them.

So, I was going to replace the seals (2001 Standard, 86,000 Miles).  

I would appreciate any information your plans or the process you are going to use.  Also what parts you will be purchasing.  

Looks like I would need

51490-MW0-003   SEAL SET, FR. FORK (2) and maybe

91254-KZ3-003           DUST SEAL (2)

And some fork oil.

Question?  Which size Seal Doctor do I need the large or small?

[Valkorado]

Question?  Which size Seal Doctor do I need the large or small?

Large.

[sandy]

Find a repair shop that will get you "All Balls" seals. I have done a lot of rebuilds and they make the best. Better than OEM.

[hubcapsc]

Look close enough at the manual to see which of the bushings and
stuff are "wear parts", I'd hate to go to all the trouble of a rebuild
and reuse bushings that have obvious wear.

-Mike

[carolinarider09]

Ok, other than doing it myself.  I can try and find someone that can re-build them for me.  Just take the tubes off and have the shop do it.  But... Which shop.  The only one I know in my area is the Honda shop which I use for tires and stuff.

[RonW]

That's expensive, but you do need a special tool or a diy tool for the left fork. There's a 4 part video on replacing vtx 1800 fork seals sorta identical, here. Also, there's an internal part that apparently threads into the bottom of the fork cap, both forks. The step was to take a measurement of the distance of the threaded section or sumpthin before you unscrew it apart. When I installed progressive fork springs, I didn't pre-measure, had to guess at it on install. No guarantee the mechanic would do that right.

[hubcapsc]

Ok, other than doing it myself.  I can try and find someone that can re-build them for me.  Just take the tubes off and have the shop do it.  But... Which shop.  The only one I know in my area is the Honda shop which I use for tires and stuff.

I took my forks to the Powdersville Honda shop when I first got my bike. I had
to re-do them myself not long after. What Honda shop do you use, the little
one over between Laurens and Clinton?

-Mike

[carolinarider09]

[/quote ]

I took my forks to the Powdersville Honda shop when I first got my bike. I had
to re-do them myself not long after. What Honda shop do you use, the little
one over between Laurens and Clinton?

-Mike

[/quote]

Mike,

I have used Carolina Honda in Columbia except one time when I hit a deer with my ST1300 and they (Carolina Honda) wanted me to leave it there for two weeks to get an estimate.  I then took it to the Honda in Clinton, got the estimate in a few days but took over two months to get it repaired and there were issues after the repair that I had to address.  Nothing major but ....

So, I'd not use the shop in Clinton again.  I'd like to think I could just take them off and let Carolina Honda do the work.  But I just had a new front tire mounted (had to replace he valve stem also) and when I got it back on the bike, I noticed a couple of wheel weights on the garage floor.

So, I am torn between tackling it myself or.... Carolina Honda

[carolinarider09]

That's expensive, but you do need a special tool or a diy tool for the left fork. There's a 4 part video on replacing vtx 1800 fork seals sorta identical, here. Also, there's an internal part that apparently threads into the bottom of the fork cap, both forks. The step was to take a measurement of the distance of the threaded section or sumpthin before you unscrew it apart. When I installed progressive fork springs, I didn't pre-measure, had to guess at it on install. No guarantee the mechanic would do that right.

Thanks. I did a search on here and found several threads on fork seal replacement and one did reference those videos.

From some of the posts I got the impression that the process of replacing the lower seals was pretty straight forward.  Maybe not

[RonW]

this too, http://tech.bareasschoppers.com/suspension/fork-spring-replacement-vtx-1800/


I wouldn't blame you if you didn't do the right side fork.

[carolinarider09]

Well the leak is on the left side.  No oil from the right side fork. 

[RonW]

I presumed that was the case since there wasn't any pic of the Right fork. It's just that the purists on the forum might disapprove hugely.

[Gryphon Rider]

I was just doing some research on fork seal replacement. I have a small dark patch under the left fork on my bike I notice this morning.  its not damp and I did not feel anything on the fork tubes when I felt them.

So, I was going to replace the seals (2001 Standard, 86,000 Miles).  

I would appreciate any information your plans or the process you are going to use.  Also what parts you will be purchasing.  

Looks like I would need

51490-MW0-003   SEAL SET, FR. FORK (2) and maybe

91254-KZ3-003           DUST SEAL (2)

And some fork oil.

Question?  Which size Seal Doctor do I need the large or small?

If all you have is a dark patch on the ground, noticed only today, and no other evidence, it seems foolish to jump to the conclusion that your seals are bad.  Might be brake fluid, maybe a mouse peed there, maybe you didn't realize you spilled something there days ago. Leaking forks leave evidence on the forks; oil doesn't evaporate quickly, and will attract dust first.

[RonW]

the poster linked a photo of the mouse peed.

[Jess from VA]

Make sure it's not antifreeze, which runs down to the same place (it tastes sweet, but poison so just a taste).  

When I was losing oil, they never leaked sitting, only running down the road, so it was misted all over the front end, and timing cover.

Here's another way to go if it is a leaky fork.  Use the Seal Doctor (best) or Seal Mate (OK) and clean them good and bounce the forks (clean, bounce, clean, bounce, repeat), and this usually stops the leaks (for weeks or moths).  Mine leaked a little, off and on, for a long time (3 years), but I never noticed any real degradation of fork function.  

Then, get on the list for Big Bill Ferguson (Big BF) to fix them for you when he comes through your area.

He fixed mine, and they've stayed fixed.

I did have a big bag of parts on hand when he showed up.

(I do have a local excellent tech who said if I took them off the bike and took them to him (with the parts), he'd do it for a hundred bux.   I let Bill do them (at my house) (and a bunch of other stuff).  

[RonW]

Mine leaked a little, off and on, for a long time (3 years), but I never noticed any real degradation of fork function.  

If the oil don't get too low, it's okay, otherwise you can't see what's happening inside the fork tube, true bliss.  I ran my forks low on oil for a year (Shadow 600) and when I took them apart the teflon coating on the bushing had scuffed off. As a result the tubes got damaged in interim. The surface of the tubes showed a different color/layer like the chrome moly had scrap-ed off where the two surfaces reciprocated against each other. I had to dump the forks anyway due to tail ending a pickup truck, but don't really know how long they'd have lasted with fork's internal condition. Maybe wouldn't have mattered.

[carolinarider09]

[/quote]
If all you have is a dark patch on the ground, noticed only today, and no other evidence, it seems foolish to jump to the conclusion that your seals are bad.  Might be brake fluid, maybe a mouse peed there, maybe you didn't realize you spilled something there days ago. Leaking forks leave evidence on the forks; oil doesn't evaporate quickly, and will attract dust first.
[/quote]

Ok,  well I just ran the bike to do some tests on electrical noise on my audio system and then it appeared.  Not sure I will do a taste test but will see how if feels.  I suspect that antifreeze is no oily or is it.  Will let you know.

[Jess from VA]

If all you have is a dark patch on the ground, noticed only today, and no other evidence, it seems foolish to jump to the conclusion that your seals are bad.  Might be brake fluid, maybe a mouse peed there, maybe you didn't realize you spilled something there days ago. Leaking forks leave evidence on the forks; oil doesn't evaporate quickly, and will attract dust first.

Ok,  well I just ran the bike to do some tests on electrical noise on my audio system and then it appeared.  Not sure I will do a taste test but will see how if feels.  I suspect that antifreeze is no oily or is it.  Will let you know.
[/quote]

Any fluid that runs down the guts of a bike before hitting the ground may be oily.  

The taste is just a finger dab to the tongue.  I've done it 30 times, and still here.  It doesn't always look green but it's always sweet.  

[carolinarider09]

Sure tastes like oil.  Ok, when I re-installed the front wheel, I did pump the front a few times (well maybe 6 or 7 times).  Could it be I forced some out that way?

[Jess from VA]

Possibly, but if so, I think it was already prone to leak.

What I did, I cleaned everything up, then went for a ride.  Using a flashlight (looking for shiny/wet), even in daylight, I found my leak (but mine was very minor, never hit the ground, never even made it to the brakes).

Again, leaking when riding, most ends up behind the forks, like the timing cover, IS pods.

[Ken aka Oil Burner]

Well, I just did my fork seals and bushings on my new-to-me 98. I did not remove the springs, so I did not need the 4-point special tool that others have talked about. Doing it this way, I drained the forks overnight and used a measured cylinder to add the fork oil. I underfilled by about an ounce on each side to account for not completely removing all fluid from the forks, since I did not disassemble completely. Unless you remove the springs, you can't use the measure-from-the-top method of fluid filling.

I did use All Balls parts, sourced from Amazon to get them here quickly.

Here's what I bought:

56-139 All Balls seal kit, which has fork seals and dust seals for both sides.

38-6092 All Balls fork bushing kit, which has all 4 bushings, the seal retainer clips (wire rings), o-rings for the fork caps, and crush washers, if you were disassembling the forks fully.

2 liters of Maxima 10wt fork oil

I also ordered a Motion Pro seal driver, rather than build something that may work. I used part number 08-0491.

Definitely a PITA that I'd have rather not had to do this week, but not out of the realm of someone handy with a decent set of tools. You'll need Allen sockets, metric wrenches, sockets, and hopefully, a torque wrench. Oh, yeah, a Philips screwdriver for the speedometer cable (probably actually a JIS, but a #2 Philips works fine).

It's a dirty job, so have some old towels and rags handy.

As stated, there are some handy videos on Youtube. There is a series of 4 videos on VTX forks, which are built the same as the Valk forks. Start here, and go on to #2, 3, and 4.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXZPzQqfAXc&t=0s

This video is not a Valk fork, but it has some handy info for doing inverted forks.  https://youtu.be/mm2F08Ys_zU

[carolinarider09]

Ken,

Thanks for the list. I will copy it to another document for safe keeping.

I got a JIS driver from Amazon yesterday.  It cost me $7.95.  It was shipped from Japan. On the shipping label on the outside it said postage was $30 USD.  Makes you wonder right.

Update:  Just looked at the parts on Amazon.  Did you Fork Seal Bullet set.  They only have a 45mm on site.

[Ken aka Oil Burner]

I didn't order the fork seal bullet, because I wouldn't have had it in time. I have a charity ride on Saturday. The seal bullet was only about $5, so I would have if it was available Prime. I just used the masking tape wrap method, and it does fine protecting the seals from the sharp edges where the bushing cutout is machined.

[Gryphon Rider]

the poster linked a photo of the mouse peed.

This photo is of jabster's bike, showing an obvious fork seal leak.  In my Reply #13, above, I was responding to carolinarider09, who "did not feel anything on the fork tubes when [he] felt them."  Jumping to conclusions about the source of a leak just leads to wasted time and money fixing things that don't need fixing, and discovering the leak is not fixed.  I supposed the "keep replacing things till the problem is solved" method of troubleshooting is sometimes cheaper than having a professional properly diagnose and fix the problem, but I'd rather only fix what actually needs fixing.  If it's a mouse that's leaking, I don't bother trying to fix the leak, I just evict the mouse and  make sure my ad for a new tenant specifies that leakers need not apply.

[carolinarider09]

well since it tastes like oil and I don't think its "mouse pee" and I don't think its a coolant leak and....

So, I ordered the All Balls parts.  Well use the information from this thread and whatever else I can find to  fix the issue. 

I have done some minor maintenance on the bikes, installed "farkles", removed wheels and changed exhausts but this will be my first attempt at removing a major part. 

[indybobm]

Sometimes, for clarity and lack of confusion, it is better to not tack onto someone else's post but to start a new one.

[RonW]

Parliamentary procedure won't ever work on a forum.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Basic Principles of Parliamentary Procedure:

1. Only one subject may claim the attention of the assembly at one time.

2. Each proposition presented for consideration is entitled to full and free debate.
3. Every member has rights that are equal to every other member.
4. The will of the majority must be carried out, and the rights of the minority must be preserved.
5. The personality and desires of each member should be merged into the organizational unit.

[hubcapsc]

Parliamentary procedure won't ever work on a forum.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Basic Principles of Parliamentary Procedure:

1. Only one subject may claim the attention of the assembly at one time.

2. Each proposition presented for consideration is entitled to full and free debate.
3. Every member has rights that are equal to every other member.
4. The will of the majority must be carried out, and the rights of the minority must be preserved.
5. The personality and desires of each member should be merged into the organizational unit.

Sounds kind of like the Borg.

-Mike

[Forge]

Parliamentary procedure won't ever work on a forum.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Basic Principles of Parliamentary Procedure:

1. Only one subject may claim the attention of the assembly at one time.

2. Each proposition presented for consideration is entitled to full and free debate.
3. Every member has rights that are equal to every other member.
4. The will of the majority must be carried out, and the rights of the minority must be preserved.
5. The personality and desires of each member should be merged into the organizational unit.

Sounds kind of like the Borg.

-Mike

Resistance is futile!

[old2soon]

Far as the All Balls go-not really and NEVER again with all balls. O E M Honda stuff and if yer gonna tear it down rebuild the whole damn thing while yer ALREADY in there. Would you wanna tear it down a second time? Yeah-thought not. While da prez did the actual rebuild I was right there on the tear down and rebuild. Less than a week and 500 miles on the all balls replacement stuff they failed. Soooo off to Honda a git the O E M stuff. Still leak free and too hot fer me to go out and figure the miles on the O E M stuff. And my I/S be happy with the Honda 10 wgt fork oil. RIDE SAFE.

[Brian]

When I rebuilt my 97 standard forks I used all OEM parts and installed new Progressive springs. I left the fork tubes on the bike. The special socket can be made at home, I did one and it worked well some have used a socket that the home improvement stores sell to replace an electric water heater element. When I went to do mine the Honda socket was not available and on back order. The seal mate tool helped me get by till I had everything in hand. What a difference in feel between the old seals and the new ones on the tubes!!!!  When my seals started leaking the seal mate trick helped me a great deal but did not stop the leak. I used a piece of PVC pipe for the seal driver. It is messy, I had a bad experience with my Virago fork seals letting a shop rebuild them I made a promise to myself that some snot nose kid would not work on any of my scooters again! But then again I chose poorly thinking the local Yamaha dealer would have the expertise!!!!

[carolinarider09]

Oil Burner provided a list of parts he purchased for his rebuild as shown below.

56-139 All Balls seal kit, which has fork seals and dust seals for both sides.

38-6092 All Balls fork bushing kit, which has all 4 bushings, the seal retainer clips (wire rings), o-rings for the fork caps, and crush washers, if you were disassembling the forks fully.

In my first post, I listed Honda OEM parts I was going to purchase.  Since I have not done this before and have not seen a list of Honda OEM Parts I should purchase to do a Fork Rebuild, it would be nice to have that list. 

Here is what I mentioned in my first post.

51490-MW0-003   SEAL SET, FR. FORK (2) and maybe

91254-KZ3-003           DUST SEAL (2)

Besides Fork Oil what other Honda OEM Parts should I purchase for a Fork Rebuild?

Thanks

[carolinarider09]

Ok, so I did a search on the forum and found a list of parts for a fork re-build from a 2013 post by Jess of VA.  Thanks Jess!

Here is the link, just in case someone else would like it as well and not have to do the search.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,57749.0.html

[Jess from VA]

Carolinarider, be advised, I got that list from somewhere else (long forgotten)(and bought them all), and when Big Bill (BIG BF) showed up and rebuilt my forks, he did not use ALL of them (but most of them).  He told me he only used what he needed. 

My thinking was to replace every possible wear part with an eye toward longevity (which I think that list covers), but I deferred to the master in such things.  I should have watched (more carefully) what he was doing (to learn), but while he was working on my two bikes, so was I cleaning up all the things not exposed since the bikes were made in 1999.  I can't remember what was left over.

I remembered that post (and list) when I read your request for a parts list above, but did not hunt and repost it because I was/am not sure if everything on that list is necessary.  I don't remember the total cost, but it wasn't that bad.  Just so you know.

[carolinarider09]

Thanks and I understand.  The list of stuff, from Honda Direct Line is about $178 for the qualities identified and the parts listed. 

[RonW]

I would also get a *backup ring* [Part 8]. Perfect fit etc for driving in the oil seals. Otherwise, the seal driver would hit the oil seal directly when you pound on it, if that makes any sense.

[carolinarider09]

I would also get a *backup ring* [Part 8]. Perfect fit etc for driving in the oil seals. Otherwise, the seal driver would hit the oil seal directly when you pound on it, if that makes any sense.

Ok I understand.  I did purchase a seal driver so, it does make some sense and its fairly cheap.

[Kep]

Mine leaked at about 40k right before Inzane 2 years ago , used a Risk Racing Seal doctor (after trying and failing with Seal-mate) has not leaked since  and have 49K on it now.

[carolinarider09]

Mine leaked at about 40k right before Inzane 2 years ago , used a Risk Racing Seal doctor (after trying and failing with Seal-mate) has not leaked since  and have 49K on it now.

Got the Seal Doctor in the mail yesterday will try if before I tackle the seals.