R1 and R2 camshafts

[pancho]

I decide to take a look at my camshafts, chasing answers for some various small things like the gas mileage never being better than 32 and always thinking that it should just run better. Well, I pull the covers to check the valve lash and cam numbers and what do I find....

Right side R1



Left side R2



So I look on eBay and see a set of cams from a 2000 Valkyrie with 14000 miles, give the guys a call and ask him to take a look at them for me. So Lon removes the bubble wrap and one is R1 and the other is R2.....  Now I'm starting to wonder if the R1 and R2 designation really does denote the California and 49 state grind part numbers,, maybe it is the casting location. I mean, I could understand a mix up happening once or even several times in sequence, but over three years?  Is there any more information on this subject than what I have seen??  I know CA has noticed this once or twice, and the recent post from Corndog with the same issue, but is there any definitive information on this?? 

[Corndog]

Please tell me I'm not crazy! 

[98valk]

Chillerman actually bought new ones using the 49 state part #, they have R1

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,54105.0.html

if one goes on a parts site, AC after a bike model # means california
bike.

here is my July post about my R2 cams
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,80073.0.html

what yr are your bikes?

[indybobm]

I guess someone is going to have to degree the cams. Without searching for the answer, has AtticRat weighed in on this?
Are their other numbers on the cams?

[98valk]

I guess someone is going to gave to degree the cams. Without searching for the answer, has AtticRat weighed in on this?
Are their other numbers on the cams?

I have an R1s in my hands right now, has R1, L for left cam other side of shaft from L is MZO, and there is a S and other side of shaft from S is C.

white paint mark on one end of each shaft.
same for right one except a Z and H in lieu of S and C.

I got them off ebay with the heads, one left and one right from two separate bikes.

[dago mooserider]

So I dug out my cali cams to check them out. When Attic Rat did his performance work to my valk we swapped the cali cams for 49 state ones out of a 97.....(I think!!) The markings on my cali cams are R2 on both, then other side has mzo R on one and mzo L on the other. I don't remember for sure but, I remember being concerned about the markings on the cams we used. I THINK they may have said R1 on one and R2 on the other. It is weird how honda did this. My bike runs REAL good so I never questioned it  after the work was done.

[98valk]

2000 49 state lists same R1 cam # chillerman posted, both cylinders
http://www.procaliber.com/oemparts/a/hon/50541213f870021c54bee698/camshaft-valve

Non-49 state lists this number, both cyclinders.
http://www.procaliber.com/oemparts/p/honda/14120-mz0-770/camshaft-l

it seems the factory builders weren't told the difference? maybe why honda stoped building bikes in marysville?

[Itinifni]

From what I've been reading it seems all we have is anecdotal evidence that the R1 and R2 cast marks are related to Cali and 49 state cams, is that correct?

I'm inclined to think a cast marks like R1 and R2 refer to a set of molds used or assembly line used to produce the cam blanks prior to final grinding.
The Cali and 49 state cams are close enough in profile that the same blanks were probably used, any identifying marks would probably be stamped onto the cams after the grind if they exist at all.

Does anyone have lift specs on the cams and if so is it any different between Cali and 49 state? If so we might be able to determine if there is a difference between R1 and R2 cams from known bikes. Otherwise like previously stated the only way to tell would be to degree the cams which is not easy for the average garage guy to do.

I find it hard to believe Honda would use two different profile cams in the same engine.

Matt

[98valk]

From what I've been reading it seems all we have is anecdotal evidence that the R1 and R2 cast marks are related to Cali and 49 state cams, is that correct?

I'm inclined to think a cast marks like R1 and R2 refer to a set of molds used or assembly line used to produce the cam blanks prior to final grinding.
The Cali and 49 state cams are close enough in profile that the same blanks were probably used, any identifying marks would probably be stamped onto the cams after the grind if they exist at all.

Does anyone have lift specs on the cams and if so is it any different between Cali and 49 state? If so we might be able to determine if there is a difference between R1 and R2 cams from known bikes. Otherwise like previously stated the only way to tell would be to degree the cams which is not easy for the average garage guy to do.

I find it hard to believe Honda would use two different profile cams in the same engine.

Matt

see my post with the link to the chillerman post and my links to procaliber. they are different cams with different part #s.  tech manual list same exact lift for 49 state and non-49 state cams, only the lobe advance/retard are different.

[Itinifni]

CA,

I understand Cali and 49 state are different p/ns but they could still be made from the same blanks. I see Chillerman ordered 49 state and received R1 but I don't think that's definitive.

Have you heard of anyone with a Cali spec bike have both R1 and R2 cams installed?

[Blackduck]

Have a pair of cams from a couple of heads I got from Pinwall, supposedly the same engine.
1 each R1 and R2 no part number stamped anywhere and just cast marks, MZO etc.
But on the end of the cams there is a white paint spot.
Don't know about later Honda engines but on the old Goldwings they used paint to ID crank bearings,there were no sizes stamped on the shells. Had to pay attention when stripping one down as to where the shells were installed.
Possibly Honda still used this practice, there has to be a way they ID the 2 cams as listed as they both use MZO in the part number.
Cheers Steve

[98valk]

CA,

I understand Cali and 49 state are different p/ns but they could still be made from the same blanks. I see Chillerman ordered 49 state and received R1 but I don't think that's definitive.

Have you heard of anyone with a Cali spec bike have both R1 and R2 cams installed?

here is july post about my cams
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,80073.0.html

the cams are Stamped Cast R1 or R2 which happens after the casting, since it doesn't look like it was cast into them, however I'm not a machinist or foundry worker, just know the basics from schooling.
every one I've looked at so far including GW 1500 cams have a L or R are a raised cast.
I think the assembly line screwed up IMO.

[pancho]

Please tell me I'm not crazy! 

Hold on there brother,,  maybe we can get to the bottom of this.  I saw that the left R1 cam on eBay was gone yesterday when I was checking,,  was that you??  I will try to PM attic Rat and alert him to this post,, see if he has any insight into the subject.

I have a set of V blocks, a dial indicator and a degree wheel,, enough to get a rough idea of the duration of a cam,,  that stuff and the specs should be enough to identify a cam as a California or 49 state, but I am not going to remove my cams at this point. I have already sealed mine back up, as I did not even need to break one nut for a valve adjustment. I was able to slide a .008 into every exhaust and a .005 into every intake, and the .006 and .009 were tight,, more perfect than I could get them,, after 60K miles. 

[98valk]

Have a pair of cams from a couple of heads I got from Pinwall, supposedly the same engine.
1 each R1 and R2 no part number stamped anywhere and just cast marks, MZO etc.
But on the end of the cams there is a white paint spot.
Don't know about later Honda engines but on the old Goldwings they used paint to ID crank bearings,there were no sizes stamped on the shells. Had to pay attention when stripping one down as to where the shells were installed.
Possibly Honda still used this practice, there has to be a way they ID the 2 cams as listed as they both use MZO in the part number.
Cheers Steve

no paint marks on the R1 cams I have, from two different bikes.

there are white paint marks.

[Patrick]

The Honda manual has the the specs for the 2 camshafts. But, to my recollection, there is no mention of an R1 or R2 or other.

There is a big difference in timing between the 2 shafts. I can certainly understand less mileage and performance from the CA shaft.

[98valk]

The Honda manual has the the specs for the 2 camshafts. But, to my recollection, there is no mention of an R1 or R2 or other.

There is a big difference in timing between the 2 shafts. I can certainly understand less mileage and performance from the CA shaft.

Correct Patrick, nothing in the manual about R1 or R2. First I knew about it was when Chillerman ordered 49 state cams and stated about the R's on his non-49 state compared to the 49 state.

[pancho]

The Honda manual has the the specs for the 2 camshafts. But, to my recollection, there is no mention of an R1 or R2 or other.

There is a big difference in timing between the 2 shafts. I can certainly understand less mileage and performance from the CA shaft.

That's why I'm chasing this thing.  In one way I'm hoping CA is right about the R2  designating an emissions  cam, because then I know what to do to fix mine,, it's just hard to believe there could be so many bikes with such a drastic error.  Even if there was a rogue employee, it seems there should have been an inventory problem at some point...??

  I have this stuff, crude but effective enough to get a duration of lift reading off a cam shaft. I think we could settle the issue if I had the R2 cam from a known 49 state bike, just not going to pull mine or buy one just to check.

[98valk]

The Honda manual has the the specs for the 2 camshafts. But, to my recollection, there is no mention of an R1 or R2 or other.

There is a big difference in timing between the 2 shafts. I can certainly understand less mileage and performance from the CA shaft.

That's why I'm chasing this thing.  In one way I'm hoping CA is right about the R2  designating an emissions  cam, because then I know what to do to fix mine,, it's just hard to believe there could be so many bikes with such a drastic error.  Even if there was a rogue employee, it seems there should have been an inventory problem at some point...??

  I have this stuff, crude but effective enough to get a duration of lift reading off a cam shaft. I think we could settle the issue if I had the R2 cam from a known 49 state bike, just not going to pull mine or buy one just to check.

I don't know if u seen my org post about my cams. My bike is a '98 and a few magazine articles including the '98 used by www.dprracing.com for a Bonneville, run that all bikes that yr had the non-49 state emission cams installed. So when Chillerman posted about his Calif emissions bike and it had the R2 camshafts in it, I then checked mine and it had the R2 cams also. I didn't know about the R1 or R2 stamping until he posted about his cam change.
The lift is the same for both cams only the valve timing events are different. With the same lift, most likely duration is the same also.
Have u seen the cam card for the web cams on their site?

[pancho]

No, check out the cam spec chart from the manual in Corndogs post CA, it shows a 15 degree difference in the intake duration between the two. Can't miss that even with primitive equiment.

[98valk]

No, check out the cam spec chart from the manual in Corndogs post CA, it shows a 15 degree difference in the intake duration between the two. Can't miss that even with primitive equiment.

Yep, I have the service manual it lists the numbers. And only the lobe lift, no rocker ration info. If u need that # let me know. See Chillermans pics u can see the difference.
 I used those open/close numbers and other websites to determine the R2 camshafts are enhanced internal EGR type cams. The R1 is not.

[Itinifni]

I think the difference in both timing and duration is great enough that it could be seen if the cams were compared side by side. Using the degree wheel and run-out gauge it should be easy to see the difference even if it is a bit crude.

I agree the cams in Chillermen's photo look different but in that case we know he was swapping 49 state cams into a Cali bike. What we need it cams from a 49 state bike with R1 and R2 designations for comparison.

I'm fighting the urge to pull the valve covers on my 97 49 state to see what's in there.

[98valk]

I think the difference in both timing and duration is great enough that it could be seen if the cams were compared side by side. Using the degree wheel and run-out gauge it should be easy to see the difference even if it is a bit crude.

I agree the cams in Chillermen's photo look different but in that case we know he was swapping 49 state cams into a Cali bike. What we need it cams from a 49 state bike with R1 and R2 designations for comparison.

I'm fighting the urge to pull the valve covers on my 97 49 state to see what's in there.

I had pinwall check a '97 for me when I was searching for some R1 cams. This was a 49 state bike per the vin #, and it had the non-49 state R2 cams. so don't be shocked if that is what u have.

[98valk]

I checked the Flow Test sheet for the heads I had flowed and ported, using the R1 cams, tech manual states R2 has same lift.

max lift was 0.320 int/exh


web cam max lift is 0.330 int/exh

[pancho]

I haven't seen or heard a single thing yet that convinces me that the R1 and R2 designators have anything to do with the grind,, to the contrary, the weight of evidence seems to  point in the opposite direction. (many 49 state bikes with R2 cams, and bikes with mixed cams) 

I really would like to get my hands on a verifiable 49 state set with an R2 to prove this out one way or the other.  Just think of the implications if so many bikes were shipped with vastly different cams in each head.

[Bighead]

I think the difference in both timing and duration is great enough that it could be seen if the cams were compared side by side. Using the degree wheel and run-out gauge it should be easy to see the difference even if it is a bit crude.

I agree the cams in Chillermen's photo look different but in that case we know he was swapping 49 state cams into a Cali bike. What we need it cams from a 49 state bike with R1 and R2 designations for comparison.

I'm fighting the urge to pull the valve covers on my 97 49 state to see what's in there.

Don't fight it just don't do it. I don't care what is stamped on my cams it has run flawless for over 100 k wouldn't change a thing. I don't understand people's need to tinker. IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT!

[98valk]

Have a pair of cams from a couple of heads I got from Pinwall, supposedly the same engine.
1 each R1 and R2 no part number stamped anywhere and just cast marks, MZO etc.
But on the end of the cams there is a white paint spot.
Don't know about later Honda engines but on the old Goldwings they used paint to ID crank bearings,there were no sizes stamped on the shells. Had to pay attention when stripping one down as to where the shells were installed.
Possibly Honda still used this practice, there has to be a way they ID the 2 cams as listed as they both use MZO in the part number.
Cheers Steve

     just checked these R1s again, white paint only one end on both.

[98valk]

checked some GW GL1500 cams on ebay.  They are either pairs of R1 or R2 stamped on them. 49state and non GWs are listed with same cam part # on procaliber.  one side not even avail anymore. did Honda secretly use special R2 camshafts in non-49state bikes.
The Honda/EPA plot thickens. 

[Bighead]

Like I stated before if it ain't broke don't fix it. Just leave well enough alone and ride the damn thing or sell it to me with whatever cams are in it

[98valk]

Like I stated before if it ain't broke don't fix it. Just leave well enough alone and ride the damn thing or sell it to me with whatever cams are in it

if your not interested then why post and degrade others? but for your info using 49 state cams can provide 2-3 mpg more and ~ 10hp more.

[Bighead]

Like I stated before if it ain't broke don't fix it. Just leave well enough alone and ride the damn thing or sell it to me with whatever cams are in it

if your not interested then why post and degrade others? but for your info using 49 state cams can provide 2-3 mpg more and ~ 10hp more.

Not degrading anyone but why are you worried about something that isn't a problem?  And 2-3 mpg's would not be noticed 15 miles MAX on a tank. Hell let off the throttle a bit and it will increase waaay more. And 10 more hp, do you really need it? NO.
My whole point is why worry aboutt something you can't do anything about? (And if you can it will take years to recover money spent doing so)Ride your bike don't feel the need to tinker or tweek it for no reason.
Now if you were talking 10+ mpg (50 miles per tank) it may be worth looking into.
I just feel some need to find something wrong with something that isn't.

[pancho]

checked some GW GL1500 cams on ebay.  They are either pairs of R1 or R2 stamped on them. 49state and non GWs are listed with same cam part # on procaliber.  one side not even avail anymore. did Honda secretly use special R2 camshafts in non-49state bikes.
The Honda/EPA plot thickens. 

Hey CA, if you would send me one of your original R2 cams from your 98, I could certainly find if it is 49 state or california spec as per the information chart Blackduck posted. I for one am very interested in getting to the bottom of this as I, like many others, am interested in having my bike run as good as possible.  I will pay for the return shipping.

[Paladin528]

Generally speaking "R" numbers are revisions to the original spec. The R1 and R2 designator so are cast into the cam not stamped. To me this would indicate that something was changed from the original spec of the casting not the final grind. If the Cali cams and the 49'state are different then they will have a different part number. Otherwise how would you know what to order since the R numbers are not part of the part number.
The change could be very small and only to correct some issue in the original design. The alloy could be different. It could be anything.  Parts are revised all the time due to noted deficiencies. Look at the wheel dampers in the rear wheel. They were redesigned and now the redesigned part is all that's available because the originals had a high failure rate. Chances are the R1 and R2 are no different.

[Paladin528]

In fact the Cali and the 49 state cams are different part numbers Cali are -770 and 49 state are -670.  The R1 and R2 likely are just revision numbers and have zero bearing on the final cam profile

[98valk]

checked some GW GL1500 cams on ebay.  They are either pairs of R1 or R2 stamped on them. 49state and non GWs are listed with same cam part # on procaliber.  one side not even avail anymore. did Honda secretly use special R2 camshafts in non-49state bikes.
The Honda/EPA plot thickens. 

Hey CA, if you would send me one of your original R2 cams from your 98, I could certainly find if it is 49 state or california spec as per the information chart Blackduck posted. I for one am very interested in getting to the bottom of this as I, like many others, am interested in having my bike run as good as possible.  I will pay for the return shipping.

I haven't change the cams or heads yet, so they are still in the bike. waiting on new valve springs.
Found some info,  MZO is the code for Valkyrie Std/tourer, just about all parts will have that. The I/S uses MBY for parts just specific to the I/S like the shocks.
http://www.vsource.org/VFR-RVF_files/BHondaPCNs.htm
However in this case and other parts MZO is used for all camshafts.
I'm almost 100% positive the factory screwed up putting in an R1 and R2 cam. I surmise they saw MZO and the L or R and installed them not knowing there are R1 and R2 cams. If some bikes are found with a L R1 and some with a L R2, I would be 150% convinced they screwed up.
I checked the journals of these used R1 cams, both in spec and actually on the large end.  Lobe height also checked out.

[Skinhead]

I believe the R numbers are used to track patterns that are used to create the molds for the cam castings.  In one of the pictures posted, it looked almost like one of the cams was a forging (smooth surface finish on non-machined surfaces) vs a rough sand cast surface on the other.  

I don't mean to add more ambiguity to this subject, but I think part numbers, stamped or laser etched after the cam was heat treated and ground would be the only way to track differences.  Cast in designations would be insignificant after machining.

[98valk]

Generally speaking "R" numbers are revisions to the original spec. The R1 and R2 designator so are cast into the cam not stamped. To me this would indicate that something was changed from the original spec of the casting not the final grind. If the Cali cams and the 49'state are different then they will have a different part number. Otherwise how would you know what to order since the R numbers are not part of the part number.
The change could be very small and only to correct some issue in the original design. The alloy could be different. It could be anything.  Parts are revised all the time due to noted deficiencies. Look at the wheel dampers in the rear wheel. They were redesigned and now the redesigned part is all that's available because the originals had a high failure rate. Chances are the R1 and R2 are no different.

The "R1" is not IT IS cast as part of the camshaft as the MZO is for the ones I have. It clearly is machined in or stamped and different than the MZO and "L" or "R" which are raised castings. They are cast into the shaft It doesn't have the roughness like a cast number or letter.  such a high quality casting I looked again with an eye piece, ALL markings are raised cast or indented cast. Zero markings are stamped or lazer etched. I think I need to up the power of my reading glasses. 


 See the Chillerman pics.

[Ricky-D]

It must have some satisfying flavor to the conspiratorialists with so much agreement about Honda's failings, but I feel it is misplaced suspicion to think such a great company that manufactures such a wonderful motorcycle would partake in such subterfuge especially so since the Valkyrie is/was manufactured right here in the USA.

***

[98valk]

It must have some satisfying flavor to the conspiratorialists with so much agreement about Honda's failings, but I feel it is misplaced suspicion to think such a great company that manufactures such a wonderful motorcycle would partake in such subterfuge especially so since the Valkyrie is/was manufactured right here in the USA.

***

possibility mistakes were made that is all. nothing is being implied that it was done intentionally. Just like the GL1800 frame welding mistakes.
your reading more into it than what is being said.
I'm sure u have read over the yrs of assembly line mistakes or any undocumented changes with any manufacturer. The Chevy 396 engine comes to mind, how many went out as 403s and the consumer never knew about it.

[Paladin528]

I don't think it is a mistake at all.  It is the part number that defines what the pqrt is.  Stamps on the casting can serve many purposes for the manufacturer. This is just a revision number.

[98valk]

I don't think it is a mistake at all.  It is the part number that defines what the pqrt is.  Stamps on the casting can serve many purposes for the manufacturer. This is just a revision number.

did u see the Chillerman post?

Rev 1 aka R1 is the 49 state cam
Rev 2 aka R2 is the non-49 state cam.
No other markings are on the cams which can be attributed to it being either a 49 state or not.
So how would they know which is which?, something has to tell them.