Sport Bike darksiders

[northernvalk]

I was going to post this on the other thread but Willow set us in place...

If CTs perform the same as car tires, why wouldn't sport riders be running them?

[Willow]

Different bikes.  Different construction and purpose.

While we're comparing sport bikes and big cruisers, do you know of any sport bikes over 100,000 miles?

[northernvalk]

Lot's of vfr's with high mileage, I guess that is a sport touring be some peoples judgement...

Maybe the weight of our bikes mitigates the cam action of transitioning from the edge to the center on a CT?   

[The emperor has no clothes]

Lot's of vfr's with high mileage, I guess that is a sport touring be some peoples judgement...

Maybe the weight of our bikes mitigates the cam action of transitioning from the edge to the center on a CT?   

I`m sure of it. Air pressures play a big role also. (try it, you may like it )

[Gavin_Sons]

for someone that was convinced to never run a car tire you sure are intrigued by it.  Don't worry it happens to the best of us.

[Wizzard]

I don't run a car tire,, never will, but that's just me. I could care less if someone wants to. I sure would not argue about it.

[northernvalk]

To be 100% honest, I really like the idea of a car tire. I love the wear and durability increases and if I was riding all year as my main transportation I would switch right away.
Right now, however, my bike is my escape and I cannot afford to run two bikes at this moment.  At some point, i will relegate the valk to touring duties only and have a "play" bike to push on. Until then, the valk will fill both roles and to do so with 100% confidence, I will keep a bike tire out back.

Guess you missed this post Gavin...

[northernvalk]

...
Having said that, may I presume you will be addressing other threads in the same manner?
...

 IF you're smart and want to start a different discussion you can quote a post and start an entirely different thread with your response.

Ya...I'm smart now!!!

[..]

I used a Hankook tire on my Honda ST 1300 when I was doing cross-country trips.

[Willow]

 IF you're smart and want to start a different discussion you can quote a post and start an entirely different thread with your response.

Ya...I'm smart now!!!

Cleverly done!   

[DirtyDan]

Different bikes.  Different construction and purpose.

While we're comparing sport bikes and big cruisers, do you know of any sport bikes over 100,000 miles?

I met one guy with over 100k on a hyubussa (spelling I know)

I’ve seen a car tire a on sport touring bike. Guy liked scraping his pegs with the car tire

My 2 cents

Dan

[old2soon]

Well my .02 cents and NOT worth what ya paid but my particular learning curve from M/C specific rear tire to-gasp/shudder/askeered-was about 5 miles or less.  When I lean I can't even "feel" the transition. When folks see the D/S tire for the first time I don't even splain no more.  RIDE SAFE.

[The emperor has no clothes]

 IF you're smart and want to start a different discussion you can quote a post and start an entirely different thread with your response.

Ya...I'm smart now!!!

Cleverly done!   

[sandy]

I was going to post this on the other thread but Willow set us in place...

If CTs perform the same as car tires, why wouldn't sport riders be running them?

Same reason you don't put snow tires on an Indy car. LOL

[Alberta Patriot]

Different bikes.  Different construction and purpose.

While we're comparing sport bikes and big cruisers, do you know of any sport bikes over 100,000 miles?

Not sure about the 100,000 miles but my son club races a 2004 Yamaha R6 and that engine lives exclusively between 10,000 and 16,000 RPM and has since 2008...he bought a backup engine years ago and it just collects dust. It is a stripped down dedicated track bike with thousands invested in suspension, floating rotors, fairings etc. etc. The tires he uses would never be safe on the street as they need to be hot to be effective. Anyway...Putting a 7" square(ish) profile tire on a 400 pound bike that is capable of leaning over more than 50 degrees would be reckless to say the least.
BTW...no parts of a sport bike would touch down before about 60 degrees lean...way past the tread of C/T's

[northernvalk]

I was going to post this on the other thread but Willow set us in place...

If CTs perform the same as car tires, why wouldn't sport riders be running them?

Same reason you don't put snow tires on an Indy car. LOL

That's only because you don't run the Toronto Indy in January......

[..]

For northernvalk

My recently removed Champiro tire. 13,500 miles

[..]

New

[..]

Northernvalk I'd be interested in seeing a photo of the outer edge of your footpegs. The bit that hits the blacktop first.

[..]

Worn out and new.

[Jess from VA]

Different bikes.  Different construction and purpose.

While we're comparing sport bikes and big cruisers, do you know of any sport bikes over 100,000 miles?

Not sure about the 100,000 miles but my son club races a 2004 Yamaha R6 and that engine lives exclusively between 10,000 and 16,000 RPM and has since 2008...he bought a backup engine years ago and it just collects dust. It is a stripped down dedicated track bike with thousands invested in suspension, floating rotors, fairings etc. etc. The tires he uses would never be safe on the street as they need to be hot to be effective. Anyway...Putting a 7" square(ish) profile tire on a 400 pound bike that is capable of leaning over more than 50 degrees would be reckless to say the least.  BTW...no parts of a sport bike would touch down before about 60 degrees lean...way past the tread of C/T's

This is the correct answer to the question.  

Along with the fact that it would take a peculiarly sized car tire to even fit in the allotted space in many sport bikes.  

Sport bike riders want the track experience, every ride.   And even those young guys can't take sitting on one all day without orthopedic problems.  

The monkey foking the football, scrunched forward, legs backward, balls as part of the suspension riding position.  I hated that position even when I was 30 (on motorcycles).  I'd try anything that seemed like fun with girls (but sadly, even in my youth, that rarely lasted all day).

[northernvalk]

Northernvalk I'd be interested in seeing a photo of the outer edge of your footpegs. The bit that hits the blacktop first.

The magna's are filed down quite a bit, the valk hits a couple spots at once with the lowered springs it has now.  The highway pegs plus another spot I haven't found yet, only hit that spot once so far. Like I have mentioned before, I use my boot heal to feel the ground before I hit down, this keep me from hitting hard and also lets me lean at near max without having to throw sparks all the time...just sometimes!!

[northernvalk]

Worn out and new.

What are you showing me here Brit? I have never argued against the ability to lean the bike over. The only thing that would bother me is the falling over feeling.  The same feeling you get with a worn out tire and notice the most on the day you install a new one. Maybe this feeling is never felt because we are not leaning the tire past the fulcrum of the cam per say? If this is the case, the draw back would be the constant pressure required in a turn.  I don't like the idea of the bike always trying to stand up strait.
I must say, your "worn" car tire looks like it has almost the same amount of tread as a "new" Bike tire!!!

[The emperor has no clothes]

Worn out and new.

What are you showing me here Brit? I have never argued against the ability to lean the bike over. The only thing that would bother me is the falling over feeling.  The same feeling you get with a worn out tire and notice the most on the day you install a new one. Maybe this feeling is never felt because we are not leaning the tire past the fulcrum of the cam per say? If this is the case, the draw back would be the constant pressure required in a turn.  I don't like the idea of the bike always trying to stand up strait.
I must say, your "worn" car tire looks like it has almost the same amount of tread as a "new" Bike tire!!!

You are still making assumptions that you haven't experienced.  I do think you would dislike a car tire. I recommend you stick with Avons, Metzlers, Bridgestones . (No Dunlops) 

[Jess from VA]

There is never any felt or actual camming action on a car tire, transitioning from straight to partial to full lean, or quick switchbacks one side to the other.  The CT is different in some respects handling wise, but none is a humping camming action.  You may imagine it's there, and it may seem logical, but it's not there.  You'll just need to ride one for yourself one day.

I would have liked to try one on someone else's bike, but that was not possible for me.

My first Valk ride, was bringing my first one home too (four hours of thunderstorms, rain and lightening and terrible freeway traffic too.  And never sure the wife in the truck following me wasn't going to ram into me with all the stop and go.)  

[The emperor has no clothes]

There is never any felt or actual camming action on a car tire, transitioning from straight to partial to full lean, or quick switchbacks one side to the other.  The CT is different in some respects handling wise, but none is a humping camming action.  You may imagine it's there, and it may seem logical, but it's not there.  You'll just need to ride one for yourself one day.

I would have liked to try one on someone else's bike, but that was not possible for me.

My first Valk ride, was bringing my first one home too (four hours of thunderstorms, rain and lightening and terrible freeway traffic too.  And never sure the wife in the truck following me wasn't going to ram into me with all the stop and go.)  

WTF ? You let the 130 lb. Mike Tyson ride your ass in a rainstorm ?  my estimation of an Attorneys IQ has just dropped a little. 

[northernvalk]

Quote from: Jess from VA on April 29, 2018, 06:44:38 AM
Quote from: Gavin_Sons on April 29, 2018, 05:49:02 AM
Quote from: northernvalk on April 29, 2018, 02:51:00 AM
it's not the contact patch, although the larger rear tire should have a larger contact, it's the "cam" actions that concerns me. Transitioning from the flat to the lean cannot be the same as a round profile tire. there must be some fall over feeling and the tire, because of leverage, is always fighting to get back flat. We jave all gone from a worn bike tire to a new bike tire before. Just doing that makes the old bike tire feel square.  Ill.have to try out a bike witha car tire but I have a feeling that my sentiments will.match that of others one here that have tried and gone back.
As for legality, Ive heard they are hard to find a shop.to mount them, but lots of guys darkside up.here too.

I don't ever feel the flat spot when transitioning from a left corner to a right. I also run 34 psi. The edge of the tire squishes down so you really are not riding on the edge of the tire. I know for a fact my car tire has saved my bacon 3 times on loose gravel in corners.  If it had been a bike tire I would have been down.

  Only at max lean does half to two thirds of the tread come off the ground, but then the forces of the flexed sidewall do not exert as much force to straighten the bike up as at a half lean. 

 The tread (even on rounded edge car tires) does want to stand you up in turns, but the force on the handlebars to keep it in the turn smoothly is only a few lbs of pressure, and not fatiguing (and not a fight), just different from a rounded profile bike tire.

And I will freely admit that my first experience was not a good one.


I am not assuming anything....just going by the actual experience of dark siders...

[Willow]

The other mistake that disbelievers have in common is the assumption that a so called car tire is a car tire. They are each different, well not each, but many.  I've ridden a bike with a non-motorcycle specific tire that made me feel like I had to muscle it every inch.  I've also ridden the ones on which I could hardly tell what was on the rear.

In emergency braking the flat bottomed tire outperforms the motorcycle specific tire.  Such can be said on wet roads as well. 

[northernvalk]

All valid points Willow.

I do not, in any way, consider myself a "disbeliever" of the dark side. I would say those people are the "your gonna kill yourself" types, not the "it's not going to perform as well as a bike tire" people, such as myself. 

[..]

Worn out and new.

What are you showing me here Brit? I have never argued against the ability to lean the bike over. The only thing that would bother me is the falling over feeling.  The same feeling you get with a worn out tire and notice the most on the day you install a new one. Maybe this feeling is never felt because we are not leaning the tire past the fulcrum of the cam per say? If this is the case, the draw back would be the constant pressure required in a turn.  I don't like the idea of the bike always trying to stand up strait.
I must say, your "worn" car tire looks like it has almost the same amount of tread as a "new" Bike tire!!!

Showing you the rounded shoulder. This tire "feels"like a bike tire. Square shouldered tires suck for my riding style and where I ride. I know this from my experience.

No constant pressure needed on this tire apart from normal counter steer pressure.

When fitting a new tire in this style one does get Woo Hoo a new tire feeling as well.

Center of old tire wore too fast due to using too high air pressure for a couple of thousand miles.

[..]

All valid points Willow.

I do not, in any way, consider myself a "disbeliever" of the dark side. I would say those people are the "your gonna kill yourself" types, not the "it's not going to perform as well as a bike tire" people, such as myself.  

 In what way "not going to perform as well"? You know this from personal experience?

I would say this tire performs equally well in terms of handling. My foot pegs can cut steak they edges been ground down so much.

Better in the rain due to a greater surface contact. I don't full lean on wet roads.

Using the rear (secondary) brake also feels "grippier" on wet roads. I still rely on my front (primary) brake on wet roads.

[Alberta Patriot]

I've done the C/T's..didn't like it. It was okay on the interstate slab...where I did not like it was on uneven pavement like truck lane grooves or patched crappy roads. The tail end felt greasy and reminded me constantly that I was on a C/T. What really got me was the speed wobble above about 80mph. If you find a car tire that does not exibit those issues that's great.
IMHO...I knew what I signed up for with M/T tire life, and will never go back to C/T's....to each their own.

[John Schmidt]

As for performing better with an m/t as opposed to a round shouldered c/t, we have any number of riders in VRCC running c/t's and all but a professional racer would be hard pressed to keep up with them in the twisties. With my Kumho c/t in back, I often surprise myself on turns when I hear that grinding sound of metal on pavement/blacktop. As for a c/t trying to always stand you upright, if it does that you have the wrong tire....it's too square at the shoulders and doesn't belong on a bike. If swapped for a different one that lacks the square shoulders, you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference between it and an m/t. Like many on here, I speak from experience as well. Where I live, the Orlando, FL area, traffic is horrible and it's not just the tourists or snowbirds. The grip in braking with my c/t far outweighs any m/t I've ever used and in the Orlando metro area it has saved my hide more than once.....rain or shine. When locking up the rear wheel in a panic stop, it has never skidded into what could turn into a hide side dismount at speed. It just squats and grabs in a straight line.

[Bigwolf]

I do not, in any way, consider myself a "disbeliever" of the dark side. I would say those people are the "your gonna kill yourself" types, not the "it's not going to perform as well as a bike tire" people, such as myself. 

northernvalk,

Really?
To each his own.  Ride what you like.........just don't waste your time and effort trying to convince me to ride what you like.  Obviously your motorcycle experience is much more extensive than mine.  However, my experience with a car tire on my Valk shows a definite improvement over the motorcycle tire.  The CT has kept me upright through 4 or 5 panic stops but I was never that lucky with a motorcycle tire on the back.  Also, I put my first CT rear on my standard and immediately began to push my limits in the turns with acceleration and with braking.  This testing continued for over 300 miles.  I do not have any scientific data to prove it and really don't care if anyone else believes me or not.  For me, the improvement was large enough to be easily recognizable.

I can find some very slight agreement with what you have been pushing as truth here.
My first CT rear tire was a Falken ziex 512.  It is no longer available.  I loved that thing!  When I first rolled out of the garage with it, I did find it to have a "some fall over feeling" when performing a 3 mph  abrupt U turn.......a feeling that went away after 50 or 60 miles and some air pressure adjustments.  I had started out with 42 lbs of pressure and eventually found 34 lbs to be much more friendly in rough and uneven parking lot situations with no adverse consequences at highway speed.  I had about 5 miles on the tire when I pulled out of the neighborhood and onto the roadway.  Once on the roadway, the testing began and I quickly lost all thought of ever going back to a Motorcycle tire.

This did not come easy to me!  I used to think a car tire on a motorcycle was just plain crazy.  But I like to listen (or read) and observe what is being said and who is saying it.  So I kept reading all the discussions on car tires that I could find here.  After a while, it became apparent to me that the majority of the folks saying no to a car tire were folks riding less that 20,000 miles per year while the majority of those talking the virtues of a car tire were riding more than 20,000.  So...., when my rear tire wore out, I decided give the CT a try.  Hey, it was only $60 shipped to my door so why not.  I mount the tires here at home with my own equipment so that was no concern.

Sometimes, life happens and I have found myself on roads paved with fairly large gravel.  In those cases, the rear CT has tracked straight and steady while the front Motorcycle tire has jumped, skipped, and danced all over the place. 

Here is another thought that was part of my decision to try a CT:  My bike weighs something between 700 and 800 lbs and I add another 250 to that.  So that is roughly 1000 lbs on the rear tire if I happen to pull a wheelie.  I know.  Yes, I am to old for that......Ha!  Well sometimes I just get to enjoying myself and the bike and it happens.  It happens more often and really quite easily when I add my wife and all our gear for a few days excursion.  I have never found a rear motorcycle tire for this bike that is rated over 900 lbs so that might be cause for concerns of a premature blowout.  And with my wife on the back!  No thank you!  Your situation might be different.  I am now running an Accelera Alpha (they no longer make this in a 205/60R 16) with a UTQG of 300aa and a max load rating of 15,565 lbs.  I did not notice any "break in" time when I put this tire on.  It handled well first ride out.

As for sport bikes, I think the weight would not be sufficient for a car tire to work well......but then, I have never looked in to that.

So run what you like and what fits your situation.  I will not try to convince you otherwise.  You will not convince me otherwise either.

Bigwolf

[_Sheffjs_]

Simple thought. Right at the moment I have two Valks both standards one with a ct and one with a mt only because the latest Valk came with a mt. So when it is shot (that will be soon) I will get another ct.  but going from Valk to Valk I do not notice or even think about anything other than checking my air pressure.

[Mr Whiskey]

Know a guy runs his BMW K1600 GTL DarkSide
Whole lot more lean radius than I can get with the Wing

[Pappy!]

A good CT with rounded edges really cannot be felt when transitioning into a corner.
I have run both a squared off tire (hated it) and tires with very rounded profiles. About as close to a MC tire as you can get.
Get over the "Cam action" unless you believe we are trying to blow smoke up your butt. It is not there.

[Hook#3287]

Simple thought. Right at the moment I have two Valks both standards one with a ct and one with a mt only because the latest Valk came with a mt. So when it is shot (that will be soon) I will get another ct.  but going from Valk to Valk I do not notice or even think about anything other than checking my air pressure.

Same here with my Hankook optimo 195-65-16 on my I/S and the Avon on one of my tourers.

I like the Hankook much, much better on the straights and soft stuff.  I had to go across a yard today that was spongie from rain and the Hankook plowed right through, steady and straight.

On the straights, it so much more steadier, w/o any M/T wandering.  When that avon quits, I'll get another C/T, probably another Hankook, if available.

[The emperor has no clothes]

How bout a truck tire ? Northernvalk you might want to sit down. I had this delivered today . Radar Argonite rv4 8 ply truck tire. 195/65/16

[Hook#3287]

How bout a truck tire ? Northernvalk you might want to sit down. I had this delivered today . Radar Argonite rv4 8 ply truck tire. 195/65/16

Dang Rob, can't wait for the tire report.  That thing looks serious