Made in USA ? (Harley)

[DirtyDan]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-harley-davidson-tariffs/harley-davidson-says-will-not-raise-prices-to-cover-tariff-costs-idUSKBN1JL185

FYI

Dan

[RDKLL]

So, what are the chances that this is a slippery slope situation. A way to get big bike production outside the US in the guise of avoiding the tariff. And that once they get up and running they move all of the big bike production outside the US. Would they be able to sell that to the bar and shield folks?They are talking a short term  hit of $90-$100MM. Just spit balling here.

[Rams]

HD has been under financial pressure for years and has been looking to reduce labor costs.     Personally, IMHO, this was/is just the opportunity they were looking for.

I'll stick with what I have.... 

  Rams

[Wizzard]

HD has been under financial pressure for years and has been looking to reduce labor costs.     Personally, IMHO, this was/is just the opportunity they were looking for.

I'll stick with what I have.... 

  Rams

I agree totally. This problem started long before Trump and now since he is a popular scapegoat, they use him as such.

[Rams]

HD has been under financial pressure for years and has been looking to reduce labor costs.     Personally, IMHO, this was/is just the opportunity they were looking for.

I'll stick with what I have.... 

  Rams

I agree totally. This problem started long before Trump and now since he is a popular scapegoat, they use him as such.

Let this tariff situation conclude and look for HDs to be imported back to the states.   Mark my words...

Rams

[Robert]

New York Times Reporter Once Dated Other Members Of Senate Intelligence Committee


Trump Warns "Beginning Of The End" For Harley: "They Surrendered, They Quit!"



    A Harley-Davidson should never be built in another country-never! Their employees and customers are already very angry at them. If they move, watch, it will be the beginning of the end - they surrendered, they quit! The Aura will be gone and they will be taxed like never before!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 26, 2018

[Alberta Patriot]

Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai...etc...etc, have been assembling SUV's and Trucks for years in North America to avoid tariffs...the best LONG TERM solution would be "True" Tariff Free Trade, instead of the ever increasing protectionism that was partly responsible for the crash of '29...live or die on your ability(or lack thereof) to produce quality world class products...with the exception of China who are stealing intellectual property and manipulating their currency as part of their brutal state run business plan.
Harley's business plan is to build product for a rapidly evaporating demographic...keep up or die...just ask the Brits about the 70's versus Japan.
Tariffs only hurt the consumer in your own country by increasing the cost of production...just ask "Informed" Canadians about agricultural marketing boards(Cartels) and how Canadian consumers are being screwed over to protect producers instead of letting the free market rule!!!

[F6Dave]

It's been heading in this direction for years.  I remember when our Valkyries were new, there was an article about their domestic parts content.  The Valkyrie was built with 85% American parts, while the Harleys only had something like 72%.  That's because Honda was able to make things in its Ohio plant (like wiring harnesses) that Harley had to outsource from outside of the USA.

You might remember that the early Valkyries had 'Made in USA' printed on the back of the passenger seat.  That disappeared in the later years.  From what I read, it really irritated some people at Harley.  That may have had something to do with a change in some FTC definition that forced Honda to remove the 'Made in USA' label.

[bscrive]

HD has been under financial pressure for years and has been looking to reduce labor costs.     Personally, IMHO, this was/is just the opportunity they were looking for.

I'll stick with what I have.... 

  Rams

I agree totally. This problem started long before Trump and now since he is a popular scapegoat, they use him as such.

Let this tariff situation conclude and look for HDs to be imported back to the states.   Mark my words...

Rams

The North American market is saturated with HDs.  I don't see them ever coming back.  I agree, that HD is using the tariffs as a way to leave, but Trump's tariffs will start to affect more and more Americans as time rolls on.  This is just the first of many.  Imposing tariffs was a really stupid thing for Trump to do and you guys are the ones that will ultimately pay for it. 
It will hit us Canadians hard as well in the short term, but we can also get our goods from other countries that don't impose tariffs on us.

[Serk]

I'm still not in general a fan of tariffs or any other taxes for that matter, but the fact that our beloved Valkyries were made in USA is thanks to tariffs...

Honda didn't start making it's larger motorcycles in Ohio out of the goodness of their hearts... They did it to avoid a high tariff...

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/02/business/us-raises-tariff-for-motorcycles.html

[Alberta Patriot]

I'm still not in general a fan of tariffs or any other taxes for that matter, but the fact that our beloved Valkyries were made in USA is thanks to tariffs...

Honda didn't start making it's larger motorcycles in Ohio out of the goodness of their hearts... They did it to avoid a high tariff...

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/02/business/us-raises-tariff-for-motorcycles.html

And how much American Product did Japan buy while that was all going on? The world has been heading towards an economic Zero Sum Game for decades...you and I ultimately pay the the real cost of that.

[Tx Bohemian]

You might remember that the early Valkyries had 'Made in USA' printed on the back of the passenger seat.  That disappeared in the later years.  From what I read, it really irritated some people at Harley.  That may have had something to do with a change in some FTC definition that forced Honda to remove the 'Made in USA' label.

HMMM...
Wonder if those passenger seats are still available somewhere??

My '99 has the "Made in the USA" cast on the block. What I understand is half way through the '99 year it was removed.

I highlighted it so it stands out!

[F6Dave]

I'm still not in general a fan of tariffs or any other taxes for that matter, but the fact that our beloved Valkyries were made in USA is thanks to tariffs...

Honda didn't start making it's larger motorcycles in Ohio out of the goodness of their hearts... They did it to avoid a high tariff...

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/02/business/us-raises-tariff-for-motorcycles.html

I remember those tariffs.  There were articles all over the motorcycle magazines at the time.  They were designed give Harley a few years to catch up, and phased out quickly.  As always, people figured out ways around them.  Some, like Honda, moved production of large bikes to the USA.  Others downsized their 750s to 700s to avoid the 'large displacement' tariff.

[F6Dave]

You might remember that the early Valkyries had 'Made in USA' printed on the back of the passenger seat.  That disappeared in the later years.  From what I read, it really irritated some people at Harley.  That may have had something to do with a change in some FTC definition that forced Honda to remove the 'Made in USA' label.

HMMM...
Wonder if those passenger seats are still available somewhere??

My '99 has the "Made in the USA" cast on the block. What I understand is half way through the '99 year it was removed.

I highlighted it so it stands out!

Here's the seat on my '98 Tourer.  It's probably a collector's item by now.  There's an old post on the board about this.  In December, 1997 the FTC changed the standard for claiming 'Made in USA'.  As a result Honda had to remove the label, as did Harley Davidson!

[old2soon]

My 99 I/S built March of 99 does NOT have stamped Made in the U S A on the case. Don't remember the exact When of this but I Loved pointing out to my H/D ridin buds their Kehin carbs. RIDE SAFE

[Tony C.]

This is hilariously ironic news. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of Harley Riders, and maybe even motorcyclists are Trump supporters. This was evident at the motorcycle rally in Laconia, NH this past June. T-shirts with Trump's face were on sale everywhere.

Trump's policies in this and other areas will hurt the working man in the long run. Just ask the HD employees that may lose their jobs when production is switched over seas. Or ask the working man who's needs to buy a major appliance, whose prices have increased almost 25% because of Trump's trade policies. Or the price of cars and trucks that are increasing because of Trump's trade policies.

We don't make enough aluminum in this country to support our needs. So we import it from other countries, including EU countries. Why we would need to place a 25% tariff on imported aluminum if we don't have the capacity to make all we need? Maybe Trump has the answer, but I don't think so. He's keeping his campaign promises whether they make sense or not. In this case, they don't.

Regarding HD, they're a publicly traded company with a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. They're in business to make money not support Trump. They've determined that this move is in their best interest in the long run.

[GiG]

This is hilariously ironic news. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of Harley Riders, and maybe even motorcyclists are Trump supporters. This was evident at the motorcycle rally in Laconia, NH this past June. T-shirts with Trump's face were on sale everywhere.

Trump's policies in this and other areas will hurt the working man in the long run. Just ask the HD employees that may lose their jobs when production is switched over seas. Or ask the working man who's needs to buy a major appliance, whose prices have increased almost 25% because of Trump's trade policies. Or the price of cars and trucks that are increasing because of Trump's trade policies.

We don't make enough aluminum in this country to support our needs. So we import it from other countries, including EU countries. Why we would need to place a 25% tariff on imported aluminum if we don't have the capacity to make all we need? Maybe Trump has the answer, but I don't think so. He's keeping his campaign promises whether they make sense or not. In this case, they don't.

Regarding HD, they're a publicly traded company with a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. They're in business to make money not support Trump. They've determined that this move is in their best interest in the long run.

Why is it hilarious or ironic?
Do you really believe Harley decided just this week to outsource due to tarrifs? That's hilarious!
The plan has been in place for more than two years, long before the election was decided.
Like you say, HD has a financial responsibility, and they can make bone shakers cheaper in Asia.
It's been the plan for a long time and it has NOTHING to do with President Trump.

"They Quit"

[The emperor has no clothes]

I thought the plan was to make them in the EU ?

[Serk]

I thought the plan was to make them in the EU ?

...which is kind of funny that this new move to build a factory in the EU is newsworthy at all, seeing as Harley has been making bikes in India since 2011 and is currently building a factory in Thailand to make bikes for the Asian market.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/25/harley-davidson-plans-thailand-factory-to-serve-southeast-asian-market.html

[Savago]

Since 2001, Harley has being making motorcycles in Brazil. Heck! I even visited the 'factory' (more like assembly line, no parts are locally produced) once, while I was living in the Amazon.

Look for 'Manufactoring': https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/about-us/careers/locations.html.

Also check (Portuguese only): http://g1.globo.com/am/amazonas/noticia/2012/03/harley-davidson-amplia-fabrica-em-manaus-para-atender-todo-o-brasil.html

It makes financial sense to move the production to an Eastern Europe country (e.g. Poland) that is a EU member, with lower wages than the typical American worker.

EU decided to retaliate on the current's administration protective tariffs. It just pushed HD to a final decision.

Sad part of the story: the republican party used to be a supporter of free trade, not protective tariffs.

[Alpha Dog]

I sold a car that belonged to my stepdaughter last fall to a former engineer from the Anna Plant.  He designed the line and other things for what I call the MMC plant to move engine production from Anna to Marysville.  He looked fondly at my 97 Valk and talked at length about it.  He now teaches engineering at a local community college.  I go to the MMC plant a lot, last year like dang near every day.  Tis a real shame to see what was and what is now just a warehouse and small specialty item install and inspection for Honda autos.

[Pete]

For some of us it is simple.
Since we never owned and never will own a Harley, we really have no skin in the game.
And since we are not stock holders again we have no skin in the game.

We do feel sorry for those folks that may lose their job and for any impact this may have on the US economy.

The decision is up to the corp management and the stockholders, but either way life goes on.

[Serk]

[bscrive]

It looks like the largest nail producer in the US may be closing it's doors, or moving to Mexico because of the tariffs. 

http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/26/news/companies/steel-tariffs-job-losses/index.html

[F6Dave]

It looks to me like Harley is in a real bind.  Their typical customer is old and getting older.  Their products have little appeal to younger riders, or even potential new riders.  Their prices are high, partly due to their high labor costs.  I can't blame them for trying to fix some of their issues.

I read an article 5 years ago that the average age of Sturgis attendees was 58.  Since over 90% of the bikes at Sturgis are Harleys, that says a lot about the typical Harley customer.  Those may be good demographics for trikes and motorhomes, but not for motorcycles.

[f6john]

Sad part of the story: the republican party used to be a supporter of free trade, not protective tariffs.

Who says the Republican Party doesn't support free trade? It's been free for a lot of our trading partners but not for us. I think you know that. The tariffs the US has been imposing is a tactic to try and have fair trading across the board. Our politicians, on both sides of the aisle, have been giving away our position in trade for generations. America first, even if it causes a little pain at home first, medicine doesn't always taste good and it doesn't always work but you have to try.

[Tony C.]

Who says the Republican Party doesn't support free trade? It's been free for a lot of our trading partners but not for us. I think you know that. The tariffs the US has been imposing is a tactic to try and have fair trading across the board. Our politicians, on both sides of the aisle, have been giving away our position in trade for generations. America first, even if it causes a little pain at home first, medicine doesn't always taste good and it doesn't always work but you have to try.

Yes the Republican Party does support free trade. But Trump isn't a Republican or a conservative for that matter. He's himself. And the Republican Party has very little choice on how it does or does not work with him.

Regarding your comment on causing a little pain, you can ask the employees who work at the Missouri company in the link in bscrive's post as well as others yet to be affected by Trump's hard-line policies how they feel. His policies are hurting the people who supported him. 

[Moonshot_1]

Who says the Republican Party doesn't support free trade? It's been free for a lot of our trading partners but not for us. I think you know that. The tariffs the US has been imposing is a tactic to try and have fair trading across the board. Our politicians, on both sides of the aisle, have been giving away our position in trade for generations. America first, even if it causes a little pain at home first, medicine doesn't always taste good and it doesn't always work but you have to try.

Yes the Republican Party does support free trade. But Trump isn't a Republican or a conservative for that matter. He's himself. And the Republican Party has very little choice on how it does or does not work with him.

Regarding your comment on causing a little pain, you can ask the employees who work at the Missouri company in the link in bscrive's post as well as others yet to be affected by Trump's hard-line policies how they feel. His policies are hurting the people who supported him. 

How do you propose to counter the excessive tariffs imposed on US goods around the world?
Relying on the good graces of our trading partners doesn't seem to be working to well.

The point is to bring down the tariffs we are faced with and it is not going to happen unless the issue is played out. There is a whole lot of negotiating going on. We'll come out for the better.

[Alpha Dog]

A little over two weeks ago at the G7 Trump called all their bluffs and he was serious.  He said let us end all tariffs and it will be equal for everyone.  They looked at him like Shreck.  No no do not break up our gravy train.

Free trade is a myth.  We are the only one practicing it. Every one else is protecting theirselves to some degree, in some cases a high degree with tariffs or other taxes amounting to 12 to 144%.  It is long and detailed how this all happened, just say it originated from the CFR.  I so vividly remember my great economics teacher, Dr. Dale Haywood,  at Northwood University in the mid 70s when talking about trade just going nuts and saying the U. S. had the stupidest trade negotiators in the world.  Then came the 90s and early 2000s and Nafta, Gatt, and the Wto when we found even more stupid bought off negotiators that led to the demise of 70,000 factories around the U.S. and millions of good to excellent paid employees let go.
In some cases entire towns vanished and main street became lonely street.   Trump understood this way back to at least the 1980s and damn well can finally do something to balance the books better. His college the Wharton School of Business at University of Penn was highly regarded while he was there in the 60s.  In fact my University styled some of our economics dept. after theirs. 

[bscrive]

Alphadog, if you think that the US doesn't have tariffs on other countries products then you are sadly mistaken. For one, the US has a 300% tarif on tobacco from Canada. Very country impose tariffs to protect certain industries. Canada does It, and the US does It. Stop listening to Trumps lies and look for yourself.

[¿spoom]

Who says the Republican Party doesn't support free trade? It's been free for a lot of our trading partners but not for us. I think you know that. The tariffs the US has been imposing is a tactic to try and have fair trading across the board. Our politicians, on both sides of the aisle, have been giving away our position in trade for generations. America first, even if it causes a little pain at home first, medicine doesn't always taste good and it doesn't always work but you have to try.

Yes the Republican Party does support free trade. But Trump isn't a Republican or a conservative for that matter. He's himself. And the Republican Party has very little choice on how it does or does not work with him.

Regarding your comment on causing a little pain, you can ask the employees who work at the Missouri company in the link in bscrive's post as well as others yet to be affected by Trump's hard-line policies how they feel. His policies are hurting the people who supported him. 

Except Harley has been losing unit sales for years, and increasing mfg. and/or assembly in other countries before any of the tariffs came along. $2k a bike? That isn't a problem in the EU if customers still WANT the product H-D makes. Harley can do whatever they want at this point, I'll never buy a new one. I've had around 9-10 Hondas and 3 Harley over the years, still have 3 Hondas and 1 Harley. At 62 I honestly don't know if I will buy another new OR used bike again, since riding is less fun every year with all the cellphone drivers trying to kill me. I DO know it if I buy new it won't be a Harley. Screw 'em. Don't know if it'd be a Honda, either, but I will at least consider one.
Harley is killing themselves being run by non-riders and poor engineering, leading to poor build quality (partially due to temp workers) and prices that are hard to justify considering what you get. Blaming Trump was cowardly and untruthful. They threw the POTUS under a bus so hard, I hope they won a stuffed animal. 

[¿spoom]

Alphadog, if you think that the US doesn't have tariffs on other countries products then you are sadly mistaken. For one, the US has a 300% tarif on tobacco from Canada. Very country impose tariffs to protect certain industries. Canada does It, and the US does It. Stop listening to Trumps lies and look for yourself.

Lies is a bit strong.

[bscrive]

Spoom, if it isn't the truth, then it's a lie.  People need to start fact checking Trump's statements.  They are so full of one sided statements and most are just plain old lies.  If you are to believe Trump, then the US doesn't charge any tariffs on anything, but every other country does.  Trump can mock other world leaders, but if one of them says something he doesn't like then he takes a hissy fit, like a child.



On another note, it looks like Indian motorcycle may be moving some of their production to Poland because of the tariffs the EU put on in retaliation to the Trump tariffs.

https://siouxcityjournal.com/business/local/polaris-mulls-moving-some-indian-motorcycle-production-from-spirit-lake/article_71969f61-ec98-595c-9e0f-0380b84000e0.html

[Hook#3287]

Spoom, if it isn't the truth, then it's a lie.  People need to start fact checking Trump's statements.  They are so full of one sided statements and most are just plain old lies.  If you are to believe Trump, then the US doesn't charge any tariffs on anything, but every other country does.  Trump can mock other world leaders, but if one of them says something he doesn't like then he takes a hissy fit, like a child.



On another note, it looks like Indian motorcycle may be moving some of their production to Poland because of the tariffs the EU put on in retaliation to the Trump tariffs.

https://siouxcityjournal.com/business/local/polaris-mulls-moving-some-indian-motorcycle-production-from-spirit-lake/article_71969f61-ec98-595c-9e0f-0380b84000e0.html

Isn't Polaris a Canadian company?

[Serk]

Isn't Polaris a Canadian company?

I thought they were too, but evidently they're currently based in Roseau, Minnesota....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_Industries

[Alpha Dog]

Alphadog, if you think that the US doesn't have tariffs on other countries products then you are sadly mistaken. For one, the US has a 300% tarif on tobacco from Canada. Very country impose tariffs to protect certain industries. Canada does It, and the US does It. Stop listening to Trumps lies and look for yourself.

I ain't talking about some itsy bitsy specialty item.  Does Canada raise a bunch of tobacco?  My goodness they moved that industry out of Ohio in the 80's.  I am sure this was done by big tobacco in some special lobby of the people that make those decisions, in any case it is minute.

I am talking about the big picture, the whole enchelada.  And this shows the U.S. had a trade deficit of 800 billion dollars.  Most of our tariffs are small to non existant.    What if we had an even trade balance or somewhere close to that.  That represents several million American workers making that product here.


My history with this subject goes back to the mid 1970s, and a huge schooling in the early 90s, long before I knew much about Donald Trump being anything other that a successful and flamboyant real estate developer.

[¿spoom]

Spoom, if it isn't the truth, then it's a lie.  People need to start fact checking Trump's statements.  They are so full of one sided statements and most are just plain old lies.  If you are to believe Trump, then the US doesn't charge any tariffs on anything, but every other country does.  Trump can mock other world leaders, but if one of them says something he doesn't like then he takes a hissy fit, like a child.



On another note, it looks like Indian motorcycle may be moving some of their production to Poland because of the tariffs the EU put on in retaliation to the Trump tariffs.

https://siouxcityjournal.com/business/local/polaris-mulls-moving-some-indian-motorcycle-production-from-spirit-lake/article_71969f61-ec98-595c-9e0f-0380b84000e0.html

Isn't Polaris a Canadian company?

You're thinking of BRP.

[¿spoom]

Spoom, if it isn't the truth, then it's a lie.  People need to start fact checking Trump's statements.  They are so full of one sided statements and most are just plain old lies.  If you are to believe Trump, then the US doesn't charge any tariffs on anything, but every other country does.  Trump can mock other world leaders, but if one of them says something he doesn't like then he takes a hissy fit, like a child.



On another note, it looks like Indian motorcycle may be moving some of their production to Poland because of the tariffs the EU put on in retaliation to the Trump tariffs.

https://siouxcityjournal.com/business/local/polaris-mulls-moving-some-indian-motorcycle-production-from-spirit-lake/article_71969f61-ec98-595c-9e0f-0380b84000e0.html

Then you and I can never listen to a single politician, and certainly not when it's a complex issue. You know, like claiming a tariff killed all the other US nail companies, I guess, and now it's the last one's turn.

[¿spoom]

Alphadog, if you think that the US doesn't have tariffs on other countries products then you are sadly mistaken. For one, the US has a 300% tarif on tobacco from Canada. Very country impose tariffs to protect certain industries. Canada does It, and the US does It. Stop listening to Trumps lies and look for yourself.

I ain't talking about some itsy bitsy specialty item.  Does Canada raise a bunch of tobacco?  My goodness they moved that industry out of Ohio in the 80's.  I am sure this was done by big tobacco in some special lobby of the people that make those decisions, in any case it is minute.

I am talking about the big picture, the whole enchelada.  And this shows the U.S. had a trade deficit of 800 billion dollars.  Most of our tariffs are small to non existant.    What if we had an even trade balance or somewhere close to that.  That represents several million American workers making that product here.


My history with this subject goes back to the mid 1970s, and a huge schooling in the early 90s, long before I knew much about Donald Trump being anything other that a successful and flamboyant real estate developer.

I'm sure he knows that.

[¿spoom]

Isn't Polaris a Canadian company?

I thought they were too, but evidently they're currently based in Roseau, Minnesota....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_Industries

Bombardier is Canadian (Valcourt) and around 10 years ago the Bombardier family sold the recreationl products off as Bombardier Recreational Products, like the Evinrude outboards (former bankrupt OMC) and Spyder 3-wheelers, Sea Doo PWCs, etc. Bombardier proper is now "just" the Planes & Trains for the most part.