Sad, just sad

[Fritz The Cat]

"A woman who stopped to help a group of ducklings on the side of the road shed tears Friday as she was found guilty of causing the deaths of a motorcyclist and his passenger daughter who slammed into her parked car."

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/06/20/woman_who_stopped_car_for_ducks_guilty_in_fatal_crash.html

 :'(

[Jess from VA]

Parked in the left lane of the freeway?

Try getting off the road, no matter how noble your cause.

Did not say if day or night (lights?), but how do you ram a stopped car on the freeway?

[Rams]

Not enough information to debate anything (intelligently) but, it's pretty obvious the jury agreed on the verdict.

[8Track]

Wow! Here in Australia the onus is always on the driver of a moving vehicle to avoid impact with stationary objects. The reason the other vehicle was stopped would not be relevant.

That girls car could have been stopped for all kinds of reasons. A mechanical failure, a medical emergency, or she could have stopped to avoid hitting a person on the road etc. The reason she was stationary should not obviate the motorcyclist from riding with the caution needed to avoid the unexpected.

I do agree that not enough facts are presented in the story to form a clear picture. One would expect that the freeway would have a shoulder on it to accommodate an emergency stop, and you would expect she would have pulled over into that. If that's the case its hard to understand how a bike would have hit her car. Maybe there was no shoulder? You would naturally start thinking there was a bend or crest in the road immediately before her parked location. However, if that was the case how would she have been able to see the ducklings herself, react, and pull over near their location? Maybe she saw them and doubled back or reversed? Who knows, but whatever the case, this is a terrible tragedy.

I am very surprised by that verdict and I am sure her lawyers will appeal.

[Willow]

Parked in the left lane of the freeway?
..., but how do you ram a stopped car on the freeway?

Parked in left lane.  Obviously no brake lights as she was out of the vehicle.  Stupid people are responsible for stupid (and tragic) results.  Could it have been avoided by the motorcyclist?  Maybe.  That doesn't relieve the stupid duckling saviour of responsibility.

Four years?  That's a second tragedy.

Stop in the left lane of a highway to save ducklings?  Stupid!  Stupid!  Stupid!  I hope she never drives again.

[Big Al of Tennessee]

Volikakis was driving another motorcycle behind her husband when the collision happened. She was driving more slowly and managed to avoid injury.

Amazing the Other Motorcyclist had no problems stopping.

How much exp. did Dad have is my question.

Its a shame they are deceased but The GIRL should not be jailed.

8 Track said this..

Wow! Here in Australia the onus is always on the driver of a moving vehicle to avoid impact with stationary objects. The reason the other vehicle was stopped would not be relevant

I say this, Hit a Parked car in Tennessee, YOU pay for the Damage.

[Gryphon Rider]

From what I gather, it was a divided four lane highway with no shoulder to stop on. The sun was low in front of them, impairing vision. The father and child were on one bike being followed by the mother on another bike. They were all behind a large vehicle (truck or RV) that swerved at the last second, revealing the car stopped without hazard lights on. Even if the first bike was a full two seconds behind the truck when the truck swerved, at highway speeds I doubt a skilled rider with ABS could have gotten the bike stopped in time. Slowed and swerve, maybe, but that still doesn't consider the time required to identify the hazard and react. If the mom was following at the same distance, she would have had twice the distance to react in, because she could see the hazard past her husband. I think the verdict was appropriate. We'll see if the sentence is appropriate.

[bigguy]

If the mom was following at the same distance, she would have had twice the distance to react in, because she could see the hazard past her husband.

That would put her 4 seconds back, which is where you're supposed to be. You can rationalize till the cows come home about how hard it is to stay 4 seconds back. But this is a tragic example of how physics doesn't give a rat's @$$ how good your excuse is. If he was 2 seconds behind the vehicle in front of him, he effed up and is largely responsible for the accident. The other person's culpability in no way reduces his failure, nor will it mend a broken bone or put a single red blood cell back in his veins.

[Bighead]

If the mom was following at the same distance, she would have had twice the distance to react in, because she could see the hazard past her husband.

That would put her 4 seconds back, which is where you're supposed to be. You can rationalize till the cows come home about how hard it is to stay 4 seconds back. But this is a tragic example of how physics doesn't give a rat's @$$ how good your excuse is. If he was 2 seconds behind the vehicle in front of him, he effed up and is largely responsible for the accident.

Agreed and it is the three second rule not a two or four second rule. If he hit a parked car it took waaaaaay more than three seconds for the car to stop and him hit it. All the riders fault IMHO.

[Big Al of Tennessee]

Stopping is not the only option.

Steer Counter Steer. Go around the obstacle.

Just like the HUGE VEHICLE did in front of him, that size angle even gives him more time

to make a move out of harms way, not less time.

There are many ways to avoid a stationary target, stopping is only one.

They guy most likely froze, or could not see, either is his fault.

Ride the Bike, don't go along for the ride.

[bigguy]

Agreed and it is the three second rule not a two or four second rule. If he hit a parked car it took waaaaaay more than three seconds for the car to stop and him hit it. All the riders fault IMHO.

Three seconds for passenger cars. Four seconds for commercial vehicles in Texas. On the bike, I follow the longer rule for harder to stop vehicles.

[Jess from VA]

There is shared fault in an accident like this.  

From a rider's point of view, I would own (feel at fault for) hitting a stopped car.  

But there is almost certainly a rule you cannot stop on that road (absent emergency; which baby ducks isn't), with very foreseeable results (which is just what happened).  It is not murder, it is manslaughter.  

Who has been a passenger in a car with a driver that nearly wrecks to avoid a squirrel, cat, yada?  I have.  Dingbat!  

Trading your (or others) life for a duck or squirrel is exceedingly poor judgment.  

On the other hand, I have allowed ducks and geese to cross and rescued turtles without risking anyone's life.  (But I speed up to run over squirrels)

[Gryphon Rider]

You three Bigs are talking as if there are actually laws in North America that specify a number of seconds following distance. Lots of driver handbooks talk about it, but if it's specified in any state/province's legislation, I've never seen it. And from what I've seen on my trip to Inzane, most drivers believe it's a half-second rule.

Big Al, I don't understand your "size angle" statement.

[tank_post142]

my car stopped on the hwy (minimum speed required) is the same as my bullet speeding through space. I am 100% responsible for the results.

[Rams]

I think the verdict was appropriate. We'll see if the sentence is appropriate.

IMHO, common sense and most state laws dictate that the operator of a vehicle shall not stop in the right of way of other traffic.     There are even laws and road signs telling people to pull off the road if able to in case of an accident.    IOWs, do not block the right of way or roads, other people are coming.................      This savior of ducklings is fully responsible for the death of the two riders based on what is written in the story.    She may have thought she was doing a good thing by blocking traffic for the ducklings but, at what cost.    I agree with Willow, she has already caused two people to die, she should never drive again.    Obviously, she lacks the judgment required to drive.

[Chrisj CMA]

I didn't read where she was sentenced, 4 years is a long time but certainly better than what it could have been (if she really got 4 years)

She was wrong and I suppose she should have some consequences, but it gives me a pain I cannot locate to know she faced charges that could have put her away for life when dirtbag murderers frequently face less!

I guess Canada and the US share a lack of common sense sometimes in applying justice. 

[Rams]

I guess Canada and the US share a lack of common sense sometimes in applying justice. 

Think'n you might want to include the rest of this rock we call home.    Justice like beauty depends on perspective and that varies significantly.

[Robert]

In seeing the abundance of idiots these days we forget in our anger that they, "the idiots" are people. In some cases misguided they can hurt themselves in some cases those around them. There are no winners here in this case just many losers. There was no malice, hate, deliberate action to try to hurt anyone else just the reality of life and death not only for the ducks but for the people killed. We who ride motorcycles see it and every time we ride we deal with it. Sometimes its a deer, or a car heading for us or a cat or dog that we cannot swerve for. I cant say I dont hurt every time I have to make that decision and we all deal with these realities differently. I dont think jail time is the answer, The cost to this woman who does have compassion and did not think the situation out, is already very high and if truth be told anyone could be accused at some point in their lives of being a idiot. I know she will have a hard time forgiving herself just like each one of us would, it never leaves you its always a thought in your mind and heart. Some lessons come at a high price, while I dont believe she should get off with no punishment I think there should be a bit of mercy. I have fallen many times on my knees to ask mercy from my Father and while sometimes I have to live out the consequences, He has always healed me and brought me through situations so that I could cope with what has happened. This lady will need this kind of help, this kind of forgiveness this kind of understanding. God have mercy to all in this situation.

[Willow]

I didn't read where she was sentenced, 4 years is a long time but certainly better than what it could have been (if she really got 4 years)

The deaths took place in 2010.  The four years is how long it took to bring the offender to trial.

She was not sentenced when the article was written.  I don't know if she has been.  I have no desire to seee her spending time in prison, but I hope she never drives a vehicle on the highway again.

What's most important, probably, is what message is sent to like minded drivers.

[Big Al of Tennessee]

You three Bigs are talking as if there are actually laws in North America that specify a number of seconds following distance. Lots of driver handbooks talk about it, but if it's specified in any state/province's legislation, I've never seen it. And from what I've seen on my trip to Inzane, most drivers believe it's a half-second rule.

Big Al, I don't understand your "size angle" statement.

Large Vehicle jagged to miss the car, so that is a long vehicle, thus giving the cycle rider even more time/distance to evade and not just put on the back brake and hope for the best.

Notice there was not a pile up of wrecking vehicles, only one. Everybody else swerved, stopped or got over soon enough.

[Rams]

You three Bigs are talking as if there are actually laws in North America that specify a number of seconds following distance. Lots of driver handbooks talk about it, but if it's specified in any state/province's legislation, I've never seen it. And from what I've seen on my trip to Inzane, most drivers believe it's a half-second rule.

Big Al, I don't understand your "size angle" statement.

Large Vehicle jagged to miss the car, so that is a long vehicle, thus giving the cycle rider even more time/distance to evade and not just put on the back brake and hope for the best.

Notice there was not a pile up of wrecking vehicles, only one. Everybody else swerved, stopped or got over soon enough.

Same thing happens every race in NASCAR, not everyone misses the stalled/wrecked vehicle ahead.

IOWs, you don't stop in traffic and if you need to, you get out of the way.

[Big Al of Tennessee]

You three Bigs are talking as if there are actually laws in North America that specify a number of seconds following distance. Lots of driver handbooks talk about it, but if it's specified in any state/province's legislation, I've never seen it. And from what I've seen on my trip to Inzane, most drivers believe it's a half-second rule.

Big Al, I don't understand your "size angle" statement.

Large Vehicle jagged to miss the car, so that is a long vehicle, thus giving the cycle rider even more time/distance to evade and not just put on the back brake and hope for the best.

Notice there was not a pile up of wrecking vehicles, only one. Everybody else swerved, stopped or got over soon enough.

Same thing happens every race in NASCAR, not everyone misses the stalled/wrecked vehicle ahead.

IOWs, you don't stop in traffic and if you need to, you get out of the way.

I don't think Nascar is an appropriate, analogy.

They are sometimes clocking in at 200mph in a curve. Things happen 4 X as fast, and most miss the

wreck at 200mph.

The perfect storm, she will not get the max, maybe time served.

[Fritz The Cat]

Musta been moving pretty fast.

[Gryphon Rider]

I'd say the woman's actions in parking in the left lane of a provincial highway meet the criminal code of Canada definition of criminal negligence:

Criminal negligence

219. (1) Every one is criminally negligent who
(a) in doing anything, or
(b) in omitting to do anything that it is his duty to do,
shows wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons.
Definition of “duty”
(2) For the purposes of this section, “duty” means a duty imposed by law.

FYI, there is no minimum sentence for this, so it will be up to the judge and subsequent appeals court judges.

[Big Al of Tennessee]

Man Slows in the road on a Provincial Highway(WHAT IS THAT EXACLTY) to miss a puppy, brakes for

a puppy

mind yah.

Is hit in the rear by an idiot.

The guy that put his brakes on goes to jail.

I don't think so.

She had a rotten lawyer, just like Canadian Health Care System is, slow and ineffective.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Man Slows in the road on a Provincial Highway(WHAT IS THAT EXACLTY) to miss a puppy, brakes for

a puppy

mind yah.

Is hit in the rear by an idiot.

The guy that put his brakes on goes to jail.

I don't think so.

She had a rotten lawyer, just like Canadian Health Care System is, slow and ineffective.

Their provinces are like our states, so it would be like a state hiway. Al she put several people at risk including hers. FOR SOME FRIGGIN DUCKS

[Gryphon Rider]

Man Slows in the road on a Provincial Highway(WHAT IS THAT EXACLTY) to miss a puppy, brakes for a puppy mind yah. Is hit in the rear by an idiot.
The guy that put his brakes on goes to jail.
I don't think so.
She had a rotten lawyer, just like Canadian Health Care System is, slow and ineffective.

Someone who doesn't know what a provincial highway is has enough experience with Canadian health care to make blanket judgements about it?

And setting up a straw man and knocking it down makes one an expert in hand-to-hand combat?

[Big Al of Tennessee]

Man Slows in the road on a Provincial Highway(WHAT IS THAT EXACLTY) to miss a puppy, brakes for

a puppy

mind yah.

Is hit in the rear by an idiot.

The guy that put his brakes on goes to jail.

I don't think so.

She had a rotten lawyer, just like Canadian Health Care System is, slow and ineffective.

Their provinces are like our states, so it would be like a state hiway. Al she put several people at risk including hers. FOR SOME FRIGGIN DUCKS

Tree Hugger for sure. When it comes to stuff like this I am a liberal.

All other situations, Conservative.

Accidents Happen, we all share the roadways. Sometimes we wreck on our own. Sometimes

we are assisted. Jail Time is just crazy for this.

[Big Al of Tennessee]

Man Slows in the road on a Provincial Highway(WHAT IS THAT EXACLTY) to miss a puppy, brakes for a puppy mind yah. Is hit in the rear by an idiot.
The guy that put his brakes on goes to jail.
I don't think so.
She had a rotten lawyer, just like Canadian Health Care System is, slow and ineffective.

Someone who doesn't know what a provincial highway is has enough experience with Canadian health care to make blanket judgements about it?

And setting up a straw man and knocking it down makes one an expert in hand-to-hand combat?

Canadian Healthcare has been a Joke down here for a long time.

That is why when your well off folks get really sick they come down here for the best treatment in

the World.

Obama is about to fix all that. You all can just stay up there, and sell us low priced prescription drugs.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Man Slows in the road on a Provincial Highway(WHAT IS THAT EXACLTY) to miss a puppy, brakes for a puppy mind yah. Is hit in the rear by an idiot.
The guy that put his brakes on goes to jail.
I don't think so.
She had a rotten lawyer, just like Canadian Health Care System is, slow and ineffective.

Someone who doesn't know what a provincial highway is has enough experience with Canadian health care to make blanket judgements about it?

And setting up a straw man and knocking it down makes one an expert in hand-to-hand combat?

Canadian Healthcare has been a Joke down here for a long time.

That is why when your well off folks get really sick they come down here for the best treatment in

the World.

Obama is about to fix all that. You all can just stay up there, and sell us low priced prescription drugs.

Down where? Did you become the spokesman for all of the U.S. or just Tennessee ?

[Serk]

Man Slows in the road on a Provincial Highway(WHAT IS THAT EXACLTY) to miss a puppy, brakes for a puppy mind yah. Is hit in the rear by an idiot.
The guy that put his brakes on goes to jail.
I don't think so.
She had a rotten lawyer, just like Canadian Health Care System is, slow and ineffective.

Someone who doesn't know what a provincial highway is has enough experience with Canadian health care to make blanket judgements about it?

And setting up a straw man and knocking it down makes one an expert in hand-to-hand combat?

Canadian Healthcare has been a Joke down here for a long time.

That is why when your well off folks get really sick they come down here for the best treatment in

the World.

Obama is about to fix all that. You all can just stay up there, and sell us low priced prescription drugs.

Al, while I agree with you on your sentiments on the Canadian "health" care system, is this really the right thread to rant about it?

[Big Al of Tennessee]

Used as an Analogy, the Canadians must be a little sensitive about their Health Care System.

That's how things get side tracked. A person does not like a perspective view point.

So they attack the facts.

All the things I said are True.

Facts are facts.

But about the Sad, Just Sad Topic. I am on record as saying the bike rider is at fault as well as the

young lady. Some people should not be in a Car, the Young Lady, and some people learn too late

they don't have the talent or the aptitude to ride a MOTORCYCLE.

There back on topic.

[Grumpy]

Had a good friend die a few years ago from another idiot that ran out of gas, stopped her car just over a hump in a bridge, no lights on, could have pulled on to the shoulder and did not. My friend saw it at the last min and tried to swerve around it in a 48,000 lb crane truck, truck rolled on its side and went off the bridge into the bay, he died pinned in the cab from drowning. In my opinion she just got a wrist slap, lost her license for 5 years, no jail time. My friend left a wife and 2 children behind.

[Brad]

Accident scene




car after the crash



Emma Czornobaj was convicted by a jury on Friday on two counts of criminal negligence causing death, a charge that carries a maximum life sentence, and two counts of dangerous driving causing death, which comes with a maximum of 14 years in jail.

She won't be sentenced until August.

[Big Al of Tennessee]

Accidents

They happen every day. My wife was run over by a Ford Truck.

Injured her badly, we lost a brand new car. She is still recovering.

His fault, should he be 1 Castrated, 2 Drawn and Quartered, 3 Forfeit all his Belongings 4 Jailed

5 Fingernails Plucked Out.

No, It was an accident.

For whatever reason they continue to happen everyday, malice and intent, cannot be proven in

all cases, stupidity, is manifest throughout our society.

Driving is inherently dangerous, don't do it, unless you want to face a stupid society.

They Vote as well. And reproduce.

[Gryphon]

Musta been moving pretty fast.

This was discussed on another site I frequent this morning:   "A provincial police officer testified at the trial that Roy, whose speed was estimated at 113 km/h and 129 km/h when he applied his brakes, collided with Czornobaj's car at between 105 km/h and 121 km/h"

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/20/woman-convicted-for-triggering-deadly-crash-by-helping-ducks

[Serk]

This was discussed on another site I frequent this morning:   "A provincial police officer testified at the trial that Roy, whose speed was estimated at 113 km/h and 129 km/h when he applied his brakes, collided with Czornobaj's car at between 105 km/h and 121 km/h"

And a quick translation for those of us that don't use that evil confusing metric system:

This was discussed on another site I frequent this morning:   "A provincial police officer testified at the trial that Roy, whose speed was estimated at 70 mph and 80 mph when he applied his brakes, collided with Czornobaj's car at between 65 mph and 75 mph"

[Gryphon]

Thanks Serk.  My post was in reply to Fritz' comment about the speed at impact.  I never noticed the metric speed thing.  I translated automatically and didn't think about it.  Mea Culpa.  Plenty of blame to go around on this one.  Rider should have time to swerve, but car parked in the left lane without hazards is way wrong.  Tragic, none the less.

 I haven't swapped out the speedo on my custom BMW from the metric one (read too cheap to buy one at full price) so I'm used to doing the calculation. 

[Serk]

Thanks Serk.  My post was in reply to Fritz' comment about the speed at impact.  I never noticed the metric speed thing.  I translated automatically and didn't think about it.  Mea Culpa.  Plenty of blame to go around on this one.  Rider should have time to swerve, but car parked in the left lane without hazards is way wrong.  Tragic, none the less.

 I haven't swapped out the speedo on my custom BMW from the metric one (read too cheap to buy one at full price) so I'm used to doing the calculation. 

No need for a Mea Culpa, the "evil confusing" jab was mostly tongue in cheek... Reminds me of an old joke:

What do you call someone who speaks 2 languages?

-Bi-Lingual

What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages?

-Tri-Lingual

What do you call someone who speaks 1 language?

-American

Just trying to help my fellow Americans out...

And yeah, plenty of blame to go around, I'm not sure what I would choose as punishment if I had magical judging powers to be honest, very tough call... On the one hand hesitant to totally ruin someone's life for 1 horrible fatal stupid thing, even if she did ruin others, but on the other, would want to be able to make an example to maybe hopefully cause others to THINK before doing something equally dumb...

[nogrey]

I thought about this thread yesterday driving to church. Heading down a 4-lane and LOOKOUT!!!!...cars stopped in all 4 lanes suddenly. Yup, ducks crossing the road. Then 20 minutes later, in downtown Boise, this time a one-way, 6 lanes wide and LOOKOUT AGAIN!!!...same thing, only for geese this time. This time of year they're all over the place and people stop for them. Shoot, I stop for them, its a natural reflex to not want to run over animals in the roadway (at least for me it is)...but I dang sure check my rear view mirror first, brake slowly, honk, put emergency flashers on and....if necessary, I sacrifice the ducks/geese. Oh, and I need to mention that these are city roadways. Speed limit is 35mph. On the freeway, I guess you just do your best to miss the animals, but stopping is a definite no-no.
Don't know if any on this board have ever heard of the "Smith System", but I'm a certified instructor, have been for years. Also referred to as "space-cushion driving". Your best defense against an accident is "to not be there". Surround yourself with space.
Anyway, no matter what your take on this horrible event, it was a catastrophe that took two people away from their loved ones. It was unintentional, shoot, that's why they're called "accidents".
I feel for all involved. One can only pray that they never find themselves in a similar circumstance.