Should drones be kept out of the hands of citizen hobbyists?

[Momz]

OK. it's not Valkyrie related but they are a fun way to annoy the neighbors.  

http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-drones-be-banned-from-private-use

[BradValk48237]

No,

Just out of the hands of Ass#@%s........


Next Question... Do you own the airspace above your property?

B

[dreamaker]

I have three of them, its like anything else, if you abuse it, there is going to be a problem.  That applies to hammers, chainsaws, BB guns, even BBQ's. The people that judge anything often base it on someone's opinions and generally have no experiences and knowledge of them, just the crap they see on TV.  Its like anything, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS AND ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEM. Simple!  If you have about 5 cents worth of brain, you can turn anything into a weapon.  Far as privacy, the cameras that come or to be used on these drones, the lenses are so wide they would have to be on top of you to be worth anything. Yes, you can buy other lenses, but they cost more that the cameras, and the more sophisticated cameras are beyond than we can afford. I just go an email from DSLRpros showing a drone with camera, on sale 20% off and its only $9875.00. People that are spending money on this kind of drone, couldn't care less about what you doing. If there is one on you, I would be more  concerned about the Black SUV that comes next.
So I say get real!!!

[Moonshot_1]

No there should not be a ban on civilian drone use. Nor should there be a ban on shooting them out of my air space if they are not welcomed.

[FLAVALK]

Bring em on!

http://www.guns.com/2015/08/20/shotgun-ammo-maker-asks-are-you-prepared-for-drones/

[Oss]

would like to see limits on flying near airports flight path and runways and army bases

IMHO if you are so stupid as to fly your drone near a commercial airliner taking off or attempting to line up on a runway you need to be in a cell long enough to reconsider the decision

You cant yell fire if there is none in a crowded theater and should not be able to endanger lives

or invade a reasonable expectation of privacy   Camera are pretty damn good if you have $

just my two cents

[solo1]

My son Chris has a quadricopter.  I told him that the quads will be labeled drones in no time and they are. Even the owners are calling them drones.

People associate drones with the military (killing machines) just like the AR15 and the AK47 are called assault weapons.  The original assault weapon definition was defined as fully automatic but the ones mentioned, in civilian hands, can be only semi autos legally.

A small quibble but still grating.

[Varmintmist]

would like to see limits on flying near airports flight path and runways and army bases

IMHO if you are so stupid as to fly your drone near a commercial airliner taking off or attempting to line up on a runway you need to be in a cell long enough to reconsider the decision

You cant yell fire if there is none in a crowded theater and should not be able to endanger lives

or invade a reasonable expectation of privacy   Camera are pretty damn good if you have $

just my two cents

Flying them near a airport is already illegal, always has been. Kites, RC aircraft, anything.

People need to know the trespassing laws, and there should be a misdemeanor attached to the summary offense if it has a camera of any kind, and it needs to be ENFORCED. Taking one out that even slightly looks like it is doing anything other than crashing on your property should be legal.

[Varmintmist]

People associate drones with the military (killing machines) just like the AR15 and the AK47 are called assault weapons.  The original assault weapon definition was defined as fully automatic but the ones mentioned, in civilian hands, can be only semi autos legally.

A small quibble but still grating.

Nope, a tax stamp and a background check and you can own a class 3 weapon as a civilian.

[dreamaker]

Far as concerns with cameras, peoples Smart Phones, IPhones or even regular Cell Phones are more of a threat than drone cams. I could do some more creative things with phones, and you wouldn't even know that they are there. You can't even pick you nose, without someone shooting you and putting it on the net. That is where the threat is. Far as shooting them out of the sky, Man! What goes up must come down, and it happens some poor insolent sap doing nothing get it maybe in the head. Think about it!  

[Firefighter]

Been flying u-control and radio control aircraft nearly all my life. They are no more dangerous than anything else, idiots flying them cause the problems. I hope the do - gooders don't take another one of my rights away.

[dreamaker]

Outside of Apopka, FL is a small asphalt airstrip that is used by remote control airplane hobbyists.  One Saturday morning I was riding the bike on Florida Toll 414 going about 70.  Some yo-yo flew one of those RC planes into the path of my motorcycle, missing me by about 3 feet.  The little airplane was 3 to 4 feet in wingspan.

I called those guys and gave them hell.  The man denied all of it and said their "pilots" were all safe operators.  I come from a family of real airplane pilots, and the model operators are not pilots.  I could not get any particular resolution.  It was one of the few times I wished I was part of an outlaw gang.

Unlike a regular aircraft, the home-drone operator has no risk in an accident.  This lead to irresponsibility, as noted here.  My experience indicates that some form of restriction on those things is needed.   

That strip would that be south of Keene Rd.

[dreamaker]

Here is a video, of one of those offenders that screws it up for us people. Makes me feel violated!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8KZAIL_wsk

[solo1]

Nope, a tax stamp and a background check and you can own a class 3 weapon as a civilian.
Quote by Varmintmist.

Sigh, i already knew that but I thought I'd keep it simple by leaving it out.  I've been in the shooting sports for over 70 years so I do know something.   

[Firefighter]

Well Pluggy, I am a so called "real pilot" and a Radio control pilot. Many of the members in my club are "real pilots" military, airline and private like me. There are rules. I belong to AMA, Academy Of Model Aeronautics. Have to be a member to belong to the flying club. Book of rules go along with the AMA. We have to abide by club safety rules and are liable for damage done. We are responsible.

You can find irresponsible people in any arena.

[Pete]

No there should not be a ban on civilian drone use. Nor should there be a ban on shooting them out of my air space if they are not welcomed.

+1 +1

[Jess from VA]

I have no personal exp with any of these things, but a few things come to mind.

Drones, are anything that flies remotely.

It would seem most RC fixed wing aircraft move pretty quickly, perhaps not as fast as real airplanes, but too fast to sit and loiter outside your window or swimming pool.  Though photo technology is good enough to still intrude in your privacy on fly-bys.  And it would seem challenging for an RC operator to swoop down to low altitude in your particular backyard then pop back up to avoid hitting other buildings, structures, and trees.  (geography and topography being variable)

It seems to me that it is the rotary (helicopter) units that have the potential to be the worst offenders of personal privacy.  Someone motoring around my neighborhood above 50-100 year old oaks would not bother me much.  But a mini chopper hovering outside my window, or squatting down inside and around my back yard, very obviously conducting curiosity-surveillance (even though I have nothing to hide there) would instantly make me feel like treating it like a clay pigeon, or sporting clay target.  Though discharge of firearm is strictly illegal in any neighborhood in my county.  Sniping the occasional squirrel with a Super Colibri subsonic .22 (quieter than any air rifle) at a safe downward angle with good backstop is one thing, but banging away with a 12 gauge would be another, and certainly/absolutely an unsafe shot at any upward angle in ANY neighborhood.  Invading someone's privacy is wrong, but shooting up a neighborhood is worse (and just the kind of thing the gun-hating press loves to cover).  And getting yourself photographed doing an illegal act is always a poor idea.

A wrist rocket loaded with BB shot would be much safer (though also illegal in my county, as is throwing rocks with your hand... if it hits someone's house).  Given a little time, I could probably devise a way to launch something (not with a firearm) which would disperse and foul the chopper rotors and crash it (like weighted netting or a bungee net).  

The 4th Amendment has been interpreted to protect reasonable expectations of privacy.  I have a reasonable expectation that my backyard belongs to me, but if I lived out in the wild blue mountain yonder, I think my reasonable expectations would be broader than in an urban neighborhood.  And out there, shooting your 12 gauge is generally quite legal.  

It is also likely that many of us (at least in urban areas) already have pictures of our backyards in Google Earth and other satellite imagery websites (though my oaks completely obscure all shots of my property except the front in any I have every dialed up).  

No, I don't think private ownership of any of these things should be banned, but people should not intrude into other people's personal space either.

Isn't it interesting how constantly advancing technologies constantly give rise to privacy/safety concerns (like NSA or their proxies capturing our every key-stoke)(cell phone tracking)(cellphone driving)(financial information)(black boxes in cars)?   Eternal vigilance to protect our basic guaranteed rights is up to all of us.

[Psychotic Bovine]

Outside of Apopka, FL is a small asphalt airstrip that is used by remote control airplane hobbyists.  One Saturday morning I was riding the bike on Florida Toll 414 going about 70.  Some yo-yo flew one of those RC planes into the path of my motorcycle, missing me by about 3 feet.  The little airplane was 3 to 4 feet in wingspan.

I called those guys and gave them hell.  The man denied all of it and said their "pilots" were all safe operators.  I come from a family of real airplane pilots, and the model operators are not pilots.  I could not get any particular resolution.  It was one of the few times I wished I was part of an outlaw gang.

Unlike a regular aircraft, the home-drone operator has no risk in an accident.  This lead to irresponsibility, as noted here.  My experience indicates that some form of restriction on those things is needed.    

Certainly a pilot of a real plane would never be irresponsible.
Here is a video my father shot at a 1/4 scale r/c fly-in at a DESIGNATED r/c field.

https://youtu.be/iPSk5L75q_I

[Rams]

I'm not a fan of Drones or Quad Copters but, I would never support a ban.    I do support holding operators of those RC aircraft responsible for the RCs actions.    That responsibility should include major fines and jail time for certain infractions.    I know there are already rules/regulations for airports but not sure about other areas.    I also support our right to privacy and do support the destruction of the afore mentioned RCs should they be intruding on our own privacy such as our back yards.

[Firefighter]

Pluggy , I agree that those RC guys should have been concerned and apologetic at the least, my point was there are inconsiderate people all around us and in every type of organization. Guess I wanted all to know that there are a lot of responsible RC clubs and we have rules in place.

Mr. Bovine, we had a crop duster pilot show off and do a touch and go on our RC runway, old radial engine coughed when he hit the gas and he barley cleared the trees at the end of the runway!  Cool but could have been his last or taken someone out on the ground, completely against FAA regulations too!

[dreamaker]

Talk about responsibility, How many people in this group done, hole shots, wheel stands, smoking tires, gone well over 100mph, weaved in and out of traffic on their bikes. Think about that! I do, and think may be those are the people I wouldn't want to see them with drones.

[98valk]

just the cameras and video recorders should not be allowed on drones. that would include model airplanes and helicopters also.
also small missiles, chain guns and dropping bombs should not allowed on drones.

[Pappy!]

Pluggy - Am also an RC flyer as well as a second generation pilot. Everyone in my family flew except for my Stewardess sister.
BTW - I know Tangerine field. Haven't flown with those guys but have been there for shows, etc.
As far as your incident goes there can be a myriad of issues that can cause something like that including a temporary radio issue, marginally low receiver battery, momentary dis-orientation, etc.
You have about as much chance of getting hit by one of those as you do by a real one.

[Dave Ritsema]

My only encounter with drones has not been favorable. Have a neighbor about an 1/8th mile away with one and observed it in a fixed hover over my place twice. The second time it was maybe 15 feet from the house. I went over to his place and told him if I ever saw it in that proximity to my house I would take it down. It's the invasion of privacy issue that I have a problem with.

He said you don't own the airspace over your house, and I replied and YOU do? He just kinda looked at me and I said just FYI, I am a pretty good skeet shooter. Haven't seen it since but the thought of the thing cruising around and taking pictures does bother me on some level. The difference between me and the gentleman that knocked out the drone in his back yard that got arrested is that I CAN shoot a gun on my property legally. 

[Robert]

We actually do own the air up to 500 feet above our homes, also can anyone say jammer, no guns needed. Controls for these things are not sophisticated really and have limited frequencies regulated by the FCC so a consistent Nuisance could be easily dealt with. People just need to learn and use the rights they have to secure their property.

The quote below was taken out of Wikipedia I posted the link also so you can read the whole thing.

Also if anyone causes an accident with a drone I would say it would be the same as causing an accident in a car, its just hard to prove especially if someone in not directly involved.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_rights

Air rights are a type of development right in real estate, referring to the empty space above a property. Generally speaking, owning or renting land or a building gives one the right to use and develop the air rights.

This legal concept is encoded in the Latin phrase Cuius est solum, eius est usque ad caelum et ad inferos ("For whoever owns the soil, it is theirs up to Heaven and down to Hell."), which appears in medieval Roman law and is credited to 13th century glossator Accursius; it was notably popularized in common law in Commentaries on the Laws of England (1766) by William Blackstone; see origins of phrase for details.

Unlimited air rights existed when people began owning real estate. It was not something that anyone really concerned themselves with before the 20th century. The first legal limits placed on air rights came about because of the airplane. Eventually, owners' property rights in the airspace were limited to what they could reasonably use. It would be impractical for the development of air travel for individual landowners to own all the space above them, therefore legislators established a public easement in the airspace above 500 ft in order to prevent claims of trespassing.

In the United States, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has the sole authority to control all public airspace, exclusively determining the rules and requirements for its use. Public air space is classified as the 'navigable' airspace above 500 feet. The general rule is that airplanes must fly high enough that, in the event of an engine failure, the pilot can land the plane without undue hazards to persons or property on the ground. The exact altitude requirements (except for purposes of takeoff and landing) are as follows. In congested areas, airplanes must stay 1,000 feet (300 m) higher than any obstacle (building, antenna, etc.) within a 2,000 feet (610 m) radius of the aircraft. In non congested, sparsely populated areas, or over bodies of water, the pilot must remain at least 500 feet (150 m) from any person, vehicle, vessel, or structure.

Some jurisdictions restrict vertical development, but may allow developmental rights associated with vertical size of buildings to be transferred to the surrounding buildings. Thus in a dense downtown area, each building in the area may have the right to thirty-five stories of airspace. The owners of an old building of only three stories high could make a great deal of money by selling their building and allowing a thirty-five story skyscraper to be built in its place

[solo1]

The video that Psychotic Bovine posted sure indicated that this was the case of a certified FAA pilot violating air procedures.  I turned the video over to the FAA and the pilot lost his license for flying too low and performing a maneuver that the aircraft wasn't certified for.

This just proves that there will ALWAYS be someone out there who will be discourteous to others and violate any established rules. RC copters will not be an exception.

It is interesting to me, an old shooter, that just like everything else people will want rules to 'correct' or stop improper behavior as long as it's not their own ox being gored. 

No matter what I believe, there will be restrictions on RC copters soon because of these same type of fools.

[dreamaker]

Pretty interesting read, but sounds like you got some, pretty paranoid people out there. If you got something to hide, its not going to be our drones looking at you.  Probably not a good idea to try and shoot them down, the way law enforcement is today, you just kicked their dog, you just assaulted a law enforcement officer. You shoot down one of their drones, may end up in the same predicament. You better check your laws about discharging weapons, within city limits. Like said interesting read, you learn allot about people by what they say, and how they say it.

[The emperor has no clothes]

you learn allot about people by what they say, and how they say it.

Yes you do ! 

[Jess from VA]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdkd9BX_iBk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHKV01YQX_w

[Psychotic Bovine]

We actually do own the air up to 500 feet above our homes, also can anyone say jammer, no guns needed. Controls for these things are not sophisticated really and have limited frequencies regulated by the FCC so a consistent Nuisance could be easily dealt with. People just need to learn and use the rights they have to secure their property.

Can you say FCC fine?  And if the craft goes out of control due to your jamming, you are the responsible party.  It's not even remotely legal to jam the radio signal in this way.
Also, most drones when they receive conflicting signals will fly home.  
Another thing, be prepared to radiate jamming power on all 2.4 ghz frequencies simultaneously.  Your neighbor's cell phones, gps, and wifi all will go bye bye.  Probably part of the county EMS, police, and fire radio systems, too.  The drone (or multicopter) is usually controlled by a digital frequency hopping spread spectrum radio set on the 2.4 ghz band.  Some radios are even more sophisticated and have a digital algorythm imbedded in the carrier that the specific receiver recognizes.  It's not likely you will be able to jam one.  Some others run on the Ham radio bands, FCC will take a VERY dim view of messing with those frequencies.  5.8ghz is another control frequency that is used, just not as often.   Now, in the older days with 72mhz radio sets, jamming was very easy.  It's far more complicated with today's systems.
I know you are speaking in hypotheticals, but keep in mind that many people depend on these frequencies for their day to day lives.  If you have an issue with multicopters flying over your property, take it up with the owner or the police, don't think you can get cute messing with jammers or shooting them down.

[Varmintmist]

Nope, a tax stamp and a background check and you can own a class 3 weapon as a civilian.
Quote by Varmintmist.

Sigh, i already knew that but I thought I'd keep it simple by leaving it out.  I've been in the shooting sports for over 70 years so I do know something.   

Giving known wrong information doesnt make it simple. Jus sayin.

[98valk]

I'm getting a Falcon trained to go after drones. 

[3fan4life]

Talk about responsibility, How many people in this group done, hole shots, wheel stands, smoking tires, gone well over 100mph, weaved in and out of traffic on their bikes. Think about that! I do, and think may be those are the people I wouldn't want to see them with drones.

Shoot I've done ALL of them simultaneously!!     

[dreamaker]

I'm getting a Falcon trained to go after drones.  

Be careful if that falcon comes in contact with those carbon fiber props, it may shred him and you will end up eating that falcon.  I look at it this way, you guys are pissed because your wives wont let you have one. Better you than me, I make my dreams come true, that is why they call me Dreamaker.  LOL

[Psychotic Bovine]

I second that.  Had 4 stitches into my ring finger knuckle from being hit with a carbon fiber propeller.  Laid it wide open.  The bathroom looked like a crime scane.

[Robert]

I think a bit of clarification of what the 2.4ghz band is that operates most rc stuff would be helpful.

http://www.wired.com/2010/09/wireless-explainer/

FCC regulations confirms any suspicions A band of frequencies clustered around 2.4 GHz has been designated, along with a handful of others, as the Industrial, Scientific, and Medical radio bands.

  “A lot of the unlicensed stuff — for example, Wi-Fi — is on the 2.4-GHz or the 900-Mhz frequencies, the ISM
bands. You don’t need a license to operate on them.” That’s Ira Kelpz, Deputy Chief, Office of Engineering and Technology at the Federal Communications Commission, explaining precisely why these ISM bands are attractive to gadget makers:

  They’re free to use. If routers and cordless phones and whatever else are relegated to a small band 2.4 GHz, then their radio waves won’t interfere with, say, cellphones operating at 1.9 GHz, or AM radio, which broadcasts between 535 kHz and 1.7 MHz.

   The ISM is, in effect, a ghetto for unlicensed wireless transmission, recommended first by a quiet little agency in a Swiss office of the UN, called the ITU, then formalized, modified and codified for practical use by the governments of the world, including, of course, our own FCC.


The frequency emitted by your microwave, right there in the kitchen that proved to be both effective and relatively cheap to achieve was 2.45 GHz.

[Psychotic Bovine]

Yes, but the FCC has regulations against jamming lawfully used frequencies.
(and microwave ovens are shielded to prevent RF interference).

From GPS.gov
"Jamming devices are radio frequency transmitters that intentionally block, jam, or interfere with lawful communications, such as cell phone calls, text messages, GPS systems, and Wi-Fi networks.

Jammers are illegal to market, sell, or use in the United States.

A single violation of the jamming prohibition can result in tens of thousands of dollars in monetary penalties, seizure of the illegal device, and imprisonment."

[Willow]

... Better you than me, I make my dreams come true, that is why they call me Deramaker.  LOL 

I think they should stop calling you Deramaker.  I wouldn't put up with that crap from anyone!   

 

[hubcapsc]

Talk about responsibility, How many people in this group done, hole shots, wheel stands, smoking tires, gone well over 100mph, weaved in and out of traffic on their bikes. Think about that! I do, and think may be those are the people I wouldn't want to see them with drones.

Shoot I've done ALL of them simultaneously!!     

I had the hole shot all the way to the first turn once! 

-Mike

[dreamaker]

Don't quote me on this but these jamming devices are legal to be use by law enforcement, like when people of power are in town they jam the signal around them, like speeches and so on. I assume so it can't trigger anything. I have read that churches, movie theaters and places that don't need cell phones going off during the shows or services. In the RC world, I have read where they speak of three frequencies, 1.4-1.8Ghz, 2.4Ghz, and 5.8Ghz. Some of the remotes are using more 5.8Ghz in some of the copters for a couple reasons, one so something like cell devices, Bluetooth and maybe a bad microwave doesn't interfere with radio to RC.  The other is the are using 5.8Ghz so you can use your cell phone or tablet to view or control other things, without interferences.  You might check around for more info. Just what I picked up here and there!