Sorry to our Canadian Friends

[G-Man]

Consider reviewing the situation from the Refugees point of view............

https://youtu.be/c1IawA37r9o

[3fan4life]

Consider reviewing the situation from the Refugees point of view............

https://youtu.be/c1IawA37r9o

I would be interested in hearing what our Canadian friends think of this.

Since it is happening in their country.


I do know that while I was serving in the first Gulf War that we had a wounded Iraqi soldier attempt to sexually assault one of the nurses that was taking care of him.

He rationalized that it was OK for him to do so because she was not a muslim and that since she wasn't covering herself with a burka that she was asking for it.

Now that was more than 20 years ago but these people are comming from a society that evolves very slowly if at all.

So, I would venture to say that their rationalization process is unchanged.

[Beardo]

Since you asked, as a Canadian,  it makes me very angry. Not so much that it was a Syrian refugee. But that officials used him being a refugee as an excuse for no punishment. Any crime should be punished no matter the race, religion, background, etc.  If that was my daughter, I would not rest until justice was served and the people who brushed it under the rug were fired.

On the same token, I won't paint ALL refugees with the same brush...just as I wouldn't paint all blacks or whites or Christians or gun owners for the actions of a few.

I know and work with white, black, and brown people... Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, atheists, etc. My kids go to a very ethnically diverse school and have never had ANY issues with anyone.  We are all just people who simply want a good life for themselves and their families. Being an ass or a criminal isn't exclusive to any one religion or race.

I don't care if someone came from Syria, is a Muslim, is gay, white or black. I have no right to judge anyone...but if I did, it would be on their actions only, not on the actions of someone who had the same skin colour or religion as them.

[baldo]

Since you asked, as a Canadian,  it makes me very angry. Not so much that it was a Syrian refugee. But that officials used him being a refugee as an excuse for no punishment. Any crime should be punished no matter the race, religion, background, etc.  If that was my daughter, I would not rest until justice was served and the people who brushed it under the rug were fired.

On the same token, I won't paint ALL refugees with the same brush...just as I wouldn't paint all blacks or whites or Christians or gun owners for the actions of a few.

I know and work with white, black, and brown people... Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, atheists, etc. My kids go to a very ethnically diverse school and have never had ANY issues with anyone.  We are all just people who simply want a good life for themselves and their families. Being an ass or a criminal isn't exclusive to any one religion or race.

I don't care if someone came from Syria, is a Muslim, is gay, white or black. I have no right to judge anyone...but if I did, it would be on their actions only, not on the actions of someone who had the same skin colour or religion as them.

Well said......

[Moonshot_1]

Since you asked, as a Canadian,  it makes me very angry. Not so much that it was a Syrian refugee. But that officials used him being a refugee as an excuse for no punishment. Any crime should be punished no matter the race, religion, background, etc.  If that was my daughter, I would not rest until justice was served and the people who brushed it under the rug were fired.

On the same token, I won't paint ALL refugees with the same brush...just as I wouldn't paint all blacks or whites or Christians or gun owners for the actions of a few.

I know and work with white, black, and brown people... Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, atheists, etc. My kids go to a very ethnically diverse school and have never had ANY issues with anyone.  We are all just people who simply want a good life for themselves and their families. Being an ass or a criminal isn't exclusive to any one religion or race.

I don't care if someone came from Syria, is a Muslim, is gay, white or black. I have no right to judge anyone...but if I did, it would be on their actions only, not on the actions of someone who had the same skin colour or religion as them.

Have to somewhat disagree here.

We are not talking about individuals. The problem doesn't necessarily exist at the individual level. The problem is the cultural level. I will endeavor to explain.

Let's say all your buddies put together a huge party in a house out in the boonies. They invite and pay for 2 dozen hookers to celebrate your birthday.
You and your friends would be in house having your way with the women and the women would be dressed for it and seemingly from your perspective being provocative as well.

But if you and your buddies were gathered in a crowded church the perspective and your behavior would be quite different.

The refugees that are coming from Syria are getting thrown into, what for them, is a similar situation but on an even larger scale.

What the western culture presents, as compared to strict Islamic culture is a cathouse. Figuratively of course. In their country women who dress and act provocatively are loose women and looking for advances. We see Freedom as a right to exercise with discretion, they see the same Freedom as coming with no discretion.

We don't see it that way of course. But we know that is how they see it.

My belief is that if you have these folks come over as individuals with the understanding of the western culture and desire to be a part of it you will have an individual that will assimilate into our culture easily and willingly.

When you bring these folks of Strict Islamic Culture over en masse as refugees, you don't bring them here as individuals but as a culture. And there is no way to assimilate the strict Islamic culture into western culture.  Oil and water they are.

So my position on Mid East Refugees is to keep the aid and assistance in that region and hemisphere. To keep the cultures where they are. Allow folks as individual immigrants to come if they wish to assimilate into western culture here.

Bringing refugees from Islamic States here en masse is detrimental to them and to us.
We simply cannot accept their cultural norms. They cannot abide by ours.

Again, this is not a poke at individuals who wish to find the American Dream an willing to adopt the Western Cultural ways.

This is about bringing entire groups of incompatible cultural ways and focing them into a nightmare.

When it comes to Refugees with compatible cultures, I have no issues with that.

[..]

Since you asked, as a Canadian,  it makes me very angry. Not so much that it was a Syrian refugee. But that officials used him being a refugee as an excuse for no punishment. Any crime should be punished no matter the race, religion, background, etc.  If that was my daughter, I would not rest until justice was served and the people who brushed it under the rug were fired.

On the same token, I won't paint ALL refugees with the same brush...just as I wouldn't paint all blacks or whites or Christians or gun owners for the actions of a few.

I know and work with white, black, and brown people... Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, atheists, etc. My kids go to a very ethnically diverse school and have never had ANY issues with anyone.  We are all just people who simply want a good life for themselves and their families. Being an ass or a criminal isn't exclusive to any one religion or race.

I don't care if someone came from Syria, is a Muslim, is gay, white or black. I have no right to judge anyone...but if I did, it would be on their actions only, not on the actions of someone who had the same skin colour or religion as them.

Have to somewhat disagree here.

We are not talking about individuals. The problem doesn't necessarily exist at the individual level. The problem is the cultural level. I will endeavor to explain.

Let's say all your buddies put together a huge party in a house out in the boonies. They invite and pay for 2 dozen hookers to celebrate your birthday.
You and your friends would be in house having your way with the women and the women would be dressed for it and seemingly from your perspective being provocative as well.

But if you and your buddies were gathered in a crowded church the perspective and your behavior would be quite different.

The refugees that are coming from Syria are getting thrown into, what for them, is a similar situation but on an even larger scale.

What the western culture presents, as compared to strict Islamic culture is a cathouse. Figuratively of course. In their country women who dress and act provocatively are loose women and looking for advances. We see Freedom as a right to exercise with discretion, they see the same Freedom as coming with no discretion.

We don't see it that way of course. But we know that is how they see it.

My belief is that if you have these folks come over as individuals with the understanding of the western culture and desire to be a part of it you will have an individual that will assimilate into our culture easily and willingly.

When you bring these folks of Strict Islamic Culture over en masse as refugees, you don't bring them here as individuals but as a culture. And there is no way to assimilate the strict Islamic culture into western culture.  Oil and water they are.

So my position on Mid East Refugees is to keep the aid and assistance in that region and hemisphere. To keep the cultures where they are. Allow folks as individual immigrants to come if they wish to assimilate into western culture here.

Bringing refugees from Islamic States here en masse is detrimental to them and to us.
We simply cannot accept their cultural norms. They cannot abide by ours.

Again, this is not a poke at individuals who wish to find the American Dream an willing to adopt the Western Cultural ways.

This is about bringing entire groups of incompatible cultural ways and focing them into a nightmare.

When it comes to Refugees with compatible cultures, I have no issues with that.

As seen in the past 2 years in most of the EU countries.

This list does not include the many physical other assaults on European men, women and children.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe

[Beardo]

I hear what you're saying Moonshot. I really do.

But I also believe in personal responsibility and accountability, that we are responsible for our actions and our actions only.  We get to enjoy the fruits of our positive actions and suffer the consequences of bad ones.

I also believe strongly that our rights and freedoms are individual rights and freedoms, that I shouldn't be lumped into a group and be accountable for others actions.

I also believe in small government, no excessive regulation infringing on our rights. Punishing a group based on the actions of an individual is exactly that. I do believe in enforcing our laws and enforcing them strongly, when an individual has broken the law.  I just disagree with grouping together based on the actions of some....just as I don't believe in over regulation of guns because some committed a crime with one. We had that happen here for a while and all it did was make criminals out of a bunch of farmers and hunters.  It was just excessive regulation rather than punishing the actions of those committing the crimes.

[Moonshot_1]

I hear what you're saying Moonshot. I really do.

But I also believe in personal responsibility and accountability, that we are responsible for our actions and our actions only.  We get to enjoy the fruits of our positive actions and suffer the consequences of bad ones.

I also believe strongly that our rights and freedoms are individual rights and freedoms, that I shouldn't be lumped into a group and be accountable for others actions.

I also believe in small government, no excessive regulation infringing on our rights. Punishing a group based on the actions of an individual is exactly that. I do believe in enforcing our laws and enforcing them strongly, when an individual has broken the law.  I just disagree with grouping together based on the actions of some....just as I don't believe in over regulation of guns because some committed a crime with one. We had that happen here for a while and all it did was make criminals out of a bunch of farmers and hunters.  It was just excessive regulation rather than punishing the actions of those committing the crimes.

No, you are not hearing me at all.

I'm not coming down on the Refugees. I'm simply saying that the Western culture presents to them a culture with no consequences because the conduct acceptable in our culture is an open invitation in their culture to do unacceptable things in ours. They don't do it intentionally so to speak.

For example it is simply a norm in their culture to make advances on women or girls who, in their culture would be considered provocative and sexually open. And therefore the problem is the unintentional consequences of slamming the two cultures together.

This phenomenon is currently between the Strict Islamic Culture of the Middle East and western culture.
The Muslim refugees out of Syria reflect this strict Islamic Culture.

It is madness to bring them here as a culture, drop them in ours, then punish them when they are simply following their own cultural norms.

Imagine a wonderful beach. Women out in the sun in bikinis. In our culture this is the norm. Nothing out of the ordinary. Wouldn't blink an eye or think it strange.
In their culture it is an open invitation to make all kinds of sexual advancements. In their mind, that is the norm.

I simply say that trying to combine these cultures is dangerous.
And when you import these particular refugees you import the culture not the individual.

There are other cultural issues but this one is the simplest one to discuss on point.

[Beardo]

We do have hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of Muslims in Canada(and the US, for that matter) who aren't raping and killing because they can't control themselves.

Yes, that first generation do have quite the culture shock. Just as if you asked my ancestors when they came from their homeland a hundred years ago, they'd have said women belong in the kitchen, shouldn't vote, shouldn't show any skin, etc.  Each successive generation moderates.

[..]

We do have hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of Muslims in Canada(and the US, for that matter) who aren't raping and killing because they can't control themselves.

Yes, that first generation do have quite the culture shock. Just as if you asked my ancestors when they came from their homeland a hundred years ago, they'd have said women belong in the kitchen, shouldn't vote, shouldn't show any skin, etc.  Each successive generation moderates.

Ask the owners of hundreds of cars torched in France every year by young Muslims if they would agree with you.

Oh, maybe that's them becoming moderate?

[Beardo]

As I said in my earlier post, Europe is a mess because of the mass migration they had. We, fortunately, have the Atlantic for a wall, so we can pick and choose who and how many.

Would it be better if we could build walls around every country, destroy all ships and planes, turned off the internet and kept people to their own cultures. Maybe. I'd be happy with what we have now. I'm also pretty sure we'd all end up fighting with each other within those walls anyway. 

[3fan4life]

Since you asked, as a Canadian,  it makes me very angry. Not so much that it was a Syrian refugee. But that officials used him being a refugee as an excuse for no punishment. Any crime should be punished no matter the race, religion, background, etc.  If that was my daughter, I would not rest until justice was served and the people who brushed it under the rug were fired.

On the same token, I won't paint ALL refugees with the same brush...just as I wouldn't paint all blacks or whites or Christians or gun owners for the actions of a few.

I know and work with white, black, and brown people... Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, atheists, etc. My kids go to a very ethnically diverse school and have never had ANY issues with anyone.  We are all just people who simply want a good life for themselves and their families. Being an ass or a criminal isn't exclusive to any one religion or race.

I don't care if someone came from Syria, is a Muslim, is gay, white or black. I have no right to judge anyone...but if I did, it would be on their actions only, not on the actions of someone who had the same skin colour or religion as them.

Thank You for taking the time to reply.

I can see where you are coming from on this and I appreciate your position.

I will say this though, Moonshot has a very good understanding of the Islamic culture as a whole.

Your experience is limited to the people that you know.

With that said your analysis from your point of view is correct, not every muslim is going to break the laws in our western culture.

In fact statistics show that only about 15% of them will.

It doesn't sound that bad on the surface, but let's look at the math:

100 X 15% = 15

1,000 X 15% = 150

10,000 x 15% = 1,500

100,000 x 15% = 15,000

1,000,000 x 15% = 150,000

So, how many potential law breakers do we just let come into our countries, "willy nilly"?

Considering that many of them don't want anything to do with western culture does it make sense to thrust them into it?

I have experienced firsthand the "Culture Shock" of being thrust into their society.

I can tell you that unless you have experienced it, you cannot understand it.

I assume that coming from their culture into western culture is just as radical of an experience.

The best response would be to shelter them in place.

Providing them with food, shelter and safety until the crisis is resolved.

The people that actually want to assimilate into western culture can be properly vetted and allowed to do so.


Someday the crisis in Syria is going to be over.

Shouldn't there be some Syrians left there to run and repair their country?

If they are all brought to Canada or the United States then the Russians will have the country completely to themselves.


It's a complicated issue and there is no easy answer.

And the truth is that NO-ONE is going to be able to successfully help until they admit that it is complicated and approach it as such.

[Beardo]

It's a complicated issue and there is no easy answer.

...probably the most accurate statement of this thread.

You and moonshot have been there and can speak better than I about their culture. As you said, I can only speak to what I have experienced, and that is, that with proper selection and vetting, they can be assimilated here as well and contribute to our society and be free from their shitty situation. Do I wish the millions who left the situation that is ISIS would have stayed and fought for their homeland?  Absolutely.  Do I think that is what you and I would do in the same situation? I like to think so.

I've enjoyed the discussion.  

[Willow]

Moonshot left out one important issue.

No action taken against a non-Muslim is considered wrong or a crime.

Some things sound good until you attempt to put them into practice.

Visit a portion of a Michigan city that has been taken over by muslim immigrants to see what the result might be.  I'm told the police don't even want to go into those areas.  That is the intent and dream of the groups of immigrants that have settled there.  They would like to expand.

[..]

youtube has many examples of "peace loving" Muslims parading in England's major cities.

What some fail to ask themselves is where are the women? Why aren't they side by side with their men?

Surely it couldn't be that they don't have the same social standing as the men. Surely not.

[..]

For the blinkered here's a report from a bastion of the blinkered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mlxMndnlzw

[Robert]

If they are a refugee,

They come to a country for protection from persecution but they do not have to accept the laws of the land they go into or conform to the society that accepted them.

They come as takers.


In Iraq we should have been the liberators instead we were the occupiers.

Lawful, time consuming immigration is the persons own admittance of the acceptance of the laws, customs and ideals of the people he is assimilating into.

They come thinking about the benefits of the country they want to go into and be apart of and honor and have one mind with the people of that country.

It  is admitting of the fact that the country they came from is not what they want and they want, by their own will wanting to assimilate and conform into the society that accepted them.

If you give them shelter they may conform to the society that accepted them but it will be doubtful that they will not have a longing for the country they came from. 

We see it time and time again and yet cannot understand this concept.

In something as terrible as a abused spouse, taken out of the abuse, yet longing for her abuser.

A great example of the ability to decide, what it really means to some and even today accepting a countries people and ideology:

See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.


When is freedom of speech not freedom of speech,

When you disagree with the left, then its abuse.

[The emperor has no clothes]

If they are a refugee,

They come to a country for protection from persecution but they do not have to accept the laws of the land they go into or conform to the society that accepted them.

They come as takers.


In Iraq we should have been the liberators instead we were the occupiers.

Lawful, time consuming immigration is the persons own admittance of the acceptance of the laws, customs and ideals of the people he is assimilating into.

They come thinking about the benefits of the country they want to go into and be apart of and honor and have one mind with the people of that country.

It  is admitting of the fact that the country they came from is not what they want and they want, by their own will wanting to assimilate and conform into the society that accepted them.

If you give them shelter they may conform to the society that accepted them but it will be doubtful that they will not have a longing for the country they came from. 

We see it time and time again and yet cannot understand this concept.

In something as terrible as a abused spouse, taken out of the abuse, yet longing for her abuser.

A great example of the ability to decide, what it really means to some and even today accepting a countries people and ideology:

See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.


When is freedom of speech not freedom of speech,

When you disagree with the left, then its abuse.

What a crock of crap. Who here on the left has accused you of abuse ? Talk about playing the "victim card". And the refugees from Eastern Europe in the 30's and 40's would have much to dispute your claims of refugees .

[G-Man]

We do have hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of Muslims in Canada(and the US, for that matter) who aren't raping and killing because they can't control themselves.

Yes, that first generation do have quite the culture shock. Just as if you asked my ancestors when they came from their homeland a hundred years ago, they'd have said women belong in the kitchen, shouldn't vote, shouldn't show any skin, etc.  Each successive generation moderates.

Ask the owners of hundreds of cars torched in France every year by young Muslims if they would agree with you.

Oh, maybe that's them becoming moderate?

And ask the Jews fleeing France, due to antisemitic crimes against them committed by Muslims including kidnapping and rape.  Only with their kidnapping, the person never comes back.  Neither did the 300 Nigerian girls. 

This is all reminding me of an old Say No To Drugs ad.  Ed Asner lost his kid to drugs.  He made a TV commercial where he simply says "Get between your kid and drugs any way you can."  This is what we need to do with regards to terrorism.  Right now, it's Islamic terrorism that is of the most threatening. 

I also get the individual has the right to (fill in the blank) but people are dying in both hemispheres.  If people have to be held up at an airport and detained or denied because they live in a country known to train terrorists, in order to try and get out in front of this atrocity that we allowed to grow to this level, so be it.  I am detained and either partially undressed or x-rayed before flying WITHIN this country, why shouldn't those from countries harboring terrorists be vetted?

Again, I get the individual rights thing, and everything else in your previous post, but we just don't live in that world.  We all wish we did.  A world where we can come and go and not have to worry about oppression, crime, name calling, etc, but we don't live in that world.  It's the president's job to protect our citizens.  If it saves one American life, he did his job well.

[Robert]

Short memory?

U.S. President Donald Trump threatened on Thursday to cut funding to the University of California at Berkeley after protesters smashed windows and set fires at the school, forcing the cancellation of an appearance by a far-right Breitbart News editor.

The NYPD was out in full force at NYU on Thursday night as protesters gathered to voice their disgust with conservative actor and Vice Media co-founder Gavin McInnes, who was inside holding a seminar for the school’s College Republicans.

I just want to apologize for our Presidents behavior to your Prime Minister today. Please know we are not all like that.

So what does the 30's and 40's have to do with those who want to come here and change the US rather than those grateful for a great place to live? Not only were times different but the reasons were different, thank you for making my point. These people were still checked by the way.

[3fan4life]

What a crock of crap.

NEVER at anytime or in ANY universe, alternative or otherwise, does a response that begins like this lead to an INTELLIGENT discussion.    

[The emperor has no clothes]

What a crock of crap.

NEVER at anytime or in ANY universe, alternative or otherwise, does a response that begins like this lead to an INTELLIGENT discussion.    

You are right. I toned it down some to meet the Rules of the Road.