PBS Ken Burns The Vietnam War

[old2soon]

Anybody else watching this? Tonight was the second installment and I am Stunned by some of the revelations made already. What is it that makes foreign powers-think the white man and the Indians-want to come and subjugate another peoples that have had/has their own way of life that works well for them? Our way-first the French and then America Forcing our beliefs on the other people. Yeah-forgot the Japanese and others that tried it also. And we misread and misunderstood EVERYTHING over in Nam. And after ALL these years they brought out a point that at the time I was taking for granted-I was NOT there for lbj or robert strange-I was there to back up my fellow Enlisted Men and Some-NOT-all the Officers I served with. Our aircraft required/needed constant maintenance and upkeep when not flying. Looking back now I enjoyed the maintenance work and the flying. Some of the camaraderie that I've missed in the Service I now find Here-VRCC and in the PGR. I'm also realizing how raw some of my feelings all these years later still exist in that raw state. Guess I gotta quit scraping that scab. RIDE SAFE.

[John Schmidt]

Yes, some rough times for our men over there, I've been watching also. I had a cousin that was a tunnel rat, came back and was never quite right after that. Had some horrible stories to tell, since we were close he would talk to me about them but according to his wife he didn't talk about it to anyone else. Used to scare her out of her mind 'cuz he would go to sleep each night with a loaded 45 under his pillow.

[Patrick]

I still sleep with a loaded .45

[rocketray]

the worst firsthand story I have  heard is where some CIA sicko decided the way to win the war was to turn the S Vietnamese against the North was to have some of our guys volunteer...and then have them under death threat to put on N Vietnamese war clothing and go into S. Vietnamese villages as heiniously as possible murder entire villages

[solo1]

I haven't watched it.  To me, it was the worst attempt by civilians to run a war that couldn't be won.
All of the fat cats in DC were at their worst and the Armed Forces took the heat for everything including the BS idea of 'body count' as the criteria for successes. My opinion only.

There have been tons of Hollywood movies about the Vietnam war made showing our troops in a bad light.  I don't know how much was true.

As an aside, the Korean War wasn't 'picked on' by the libs, in fact it was ignored.

[Crazyhorse]

I'm sure this will be tainted with his progressive world views as was his documentary on the Civil War.

[3fan4life]

I'm sure this will be tainted with his progressive world views as was his documentary on the Civil War.

It certainly is.

I was surprised to see how much it has Vilified Kennedy, I guess that he is no longer a poster boy for the left.

It'll probably crucify LBJ.

It is interesting to watch and if you can get past the rhetoric it is informative.

[Patrick]

I'm sorry I missed the second last night. I think I learned quite a bit about the history that I was unaware of until the first night.
I didn't think there was a progressive bend to it, maybe I'm wrong and would like to know what I am wrong about especially concerning JFK, FDR and Truman support.  I think LBJ should be vilified, so, where am I wrong about that.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I'm sure this will be tainted with his progressive world views as was his documentary on the Civil War.

It certainly is.

I was surprised to see how much it has Vilified Kennedy, I guess that he is no longer a poster boy for the left.

It'll probably crucify LBJ.

It is interesting to watch and if you can get past the rhetoric it is informative.

I don't understand these statements. If Ken Burns is a "progressive" that is twisting the story, would he vilify Kennedy and crucify Johnson ?

[Serk]

I don't understand these statements. If Ken Burns is a "progressive" that is twisting the story, would he vilify Kennedy and crucify Johnson ?

By today's standards LBJ and especially Kennedy would be considered hard right Republicans.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I don't understand these statements. If Ken Burns is a "progressive" that is twisting the story, would he vilify Kennedy and crucify Johnson ?

By today's standards LBJ and especially Kennedy would be considered hard right Republicans.

yeah, hard right Republicans are all about building "The Great Society" 

[3fan4life]

I don't understand these statements. If Ken Burns is a "progressive" that is twisting the story, would he vilify Kennedy and crucify Johnson ?

By today's standards LBJ and especially Kennedy would be considered hard right Republicans.

Pretty much right on spot.

Kennedy was and should be a highly regarded President.

Sadly, The pendulum that is the Democratic party has swung far to the left of where it was in his day.

I'm sorry I missed the second last night. I think I learned quite a bit about the history that I was unaware of until the first night.
  I think LBJ should be vilified, so, where am I wrong about that.

LBJ  made alot of mistakes with his handling of the Vietnam war.

I don't believe that they were made out of malice.

I believe that they were a combination of bad advisors and ignorance of Vietnam itself.

I read somewhere that LBJ passed more legislation through Congress than any other american President.

Most of that legislation was intended to right the wrongs of segregation and racism.

You would think that he would be a major hero of the left but he isn't,

Kinda makes you wonder if progressives actually care about minorities.

[baldo]

As an aside, the Korean War wasn't 'picked on' by the libs, in fact it was ignored.

?????????

[Oss]

How many of those South Vietnamese and South Koreans were both fighting for freedom and did not wish to have their families to be communist led and how many South Vietnamese died after we left is very sad indeed

IMHO we could have actually won the Vietnamese war after Tet if political correctness was ignored  We have read reports and stories that Ho was ready to surrender if we continued to bomb and level Hanoi and hit Cambodia but we stopped.    Would they have tried to throw the yoke off again?  Maybe? but I dont know if they could have won in later years  Likewise, if we had backed Mao in 50 instead of the incredibly corrupt dictator Chang I wonder if we would be facing the madman in N Korea today and what our influence over the Chinese would now be.  Would make a great concept for a movie  But of course it was impossible for our leaders to back a Communist regime on principle. The Dictator and with the assistance of our fledging intelligence service ended up destroying our only chance at influence in the country.  Mao went mad and killed ten million or more. Would he have gone nuts if we were on the same side?

[Serk]

I don't understand these statements. If Ken Burns is a "progressive" that is twisting the story, would he vilify Kennedy and crucify Johnson ?

By today's standards LBJ and especially Kennedy would be considered hard right Republicans.

yeah, hard right Republicans are all about building "The Great Society" 

I was mainly referring to JFK but even LBJ's Great Society wasn't out of a sense of altruism... As he bragged, he was just trying to guarantee a certain segment of society become loyal Democrat voters for "The next 200 years."

IMHO we could have actually won the Vietnamese war after Tet if political correctness was ignored

Militarily we could win any war against any opponent on Earth if we had the willpower to do what was necessary to win it at all costs.

And I sincerely hope no one pokes us enough to bring us to the level of unleashing our full military potential.

[The emperor has no clothes]

I don't understand these statements. If Ken Burns is a "progressive" that is twisting the story, would he vilify Kennedy and crucify Johnson ?

By today's standards LBJ and especially Kennedy would be considered hard right Republicans.

yeah, hard right Republicans are all about building "The Great Society" 

I was mainly referring to JFK but even LBJ's Great Society wasn't out of a sense of altruism... As he bragged, he was just trying to guarantee a certain segment of society become loyal Democrat voters for "The next 200 years."

The issue is really moot, but Kennedy would never be listened to in the current Republican Party. While it may be true that JFK is closer to the center than the current Democratic Party is. Nixon, Reagan, Bush are all closer to the center than the current Republican Party. Which I guess shows how polarized we have become.

[Serk]

The issue is really moot, but Kennedy would never be listened to in the current Republican Party. While it may be true that JFK is closer to the center than the current Democratic Party is. Nixon, Reagan, Bush are all closer to the center than the current Republican Party. Which I guess shows how polarized we have become.

True, the current Republican party has lurched so far to the left it's basically where the Democrats were a generation ago.

As far as JFK, the Democrat part of today wouldn't have him, if he stuck to his platform at the time of his life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-Qg_4zqpDI

[Serk]

Wow... I did a little poking on the perceived political slant of this documentary, and I find pundits on both sides decrying it, so I guess that's a good sign...

Reading this article evidently the whole "trope" of returning soldiers being mistreated was misleading and was dreamed up just to make demonstrators look bad...

The film is misleading at the outset in quoting an American soldier who recounts the pain of his homecoming, insinuating that veterans were maltreated in the United States – a trope often used to blame antiwar activists for creating this allegedly anti-veteran and divisive climate.

Source - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/burns-vietnam-documentary-promotes-misleading-history_us_59bf4922e4b0390a1564df2b

[The emperor has no clothes]

The issue is really moot, but Kennedy would never be listened to in the current Republican Party. While it may be true that JFK is closer to the center than the current Democratic Party is. Nixon, Reagan, Bush are all closer to the center than the current Republican Party. Which I guess shows how polarized we have become.

True, the current Republican party has lurched so far to the left it's basically where the Democrats were a generation ago.

As far as JFK, the Democrat part of today wouldn't have him, if he stuck to his platform at the time of his life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-Qg_4zqpDI

I guess the mind sees what it wants to see. 

[Jess from VA]

This is a good show, like all Burns' stuff.

I've done a lot of reading on RVN, but all decades ago.

I think it's hard to peg any definite Burns political slant.  You get the war and military POV, the DC idiots POV, the protesters POV, the RVN people's POV, but some of the information on the North RVN  leadership POV (and relationships to China and USSR) is new stuff.

The comment tonight from a Marine who served that he understood leadership making mistakes, big or small, but when he discovers McNamara (and others) privately believed the war was unwinnable as early as '65, it makes him angry.  I agree with him.

I tell you though, as vivid as the images and stories are, the background music chosen just takes me back to those days like a full color dream.

 

[old2soon]

This is a good show, like all Burns' stuff.

I've done a lot of reading on RVN, but all decades ago.

I think it's hard to peg any definite Burns political slant.  You get the war and military POV, the DC idiots POV, the protesters POV, the RVN people's POV, but some of the information on the North RVN  leadership POV (and relationships to China and USSR) is new stuff.

The comment tonight from a Marine who served that he understood leadership making mistakes, big or small, but when he discovers McNamara (and others) privately believed the war was unwinnable as early as '65, it makes him angry.  I agree with him.

I tell you though, as vivid as the images and stories are, the background music chosen just takes me back to those days like a full color dream.

 

              Tween the waffling of lbj and the sheer ineptitude of rsm we-U S Military-weren't sposed to win. Didn't take the antiaircraft gun crews of the N V N to figure out we inbounded the bombers the same way and egressed the bombers the same way. Look up fighter bomber losses and B-52 losses of those aircraft going down town-Hanoi. lbj was scared of pissin off the russians and the chinese. Had lbj and rsm had the balls to bomb Haiphong harbor we would have been done and outa there in less than a year. You destroy the armies supplies Before they get into the hands that need them-well good luck throwin rocks at armed troops. What would have happened had saddam gone after our refueling tankers? Similar scenario had nvm had some way to go after U S N supply ships and tankers. Aircraft Carriers would have a difficult time prosecuting an air war without fuel and weapons. Our logistics tail was a LOT longer than nvn was. The ia drang valley would have turned out different had we NOT had control of the air and supporting artillery. And if the counts are correct we-U S Army-came out of the ia drang with about 50% casualties. RIDE SAFE.

[G-Man]

I was mainly referring to JFK but even LBJ's Great Society wasn't out of a sense of altruism... As he bragged, he was just trying to guarantee a certain segment of society become loyal Democrat voters for "The next 200 years."

He was brilliant as 90+% of that certain segment are loyal democrat voters.  The rest must be racist.   

[Oldfishguy]

So far, this appears to be an excellent series; one needs to withhold final judgement till the end though.

What I am really finding interesting is the various angles they are recording from.  Most instances we hear and see a snapshot from just one viewpoint.  Just a few years back the viewpoint of the Vietnamese soldier was not possible.  And then the producers dig into the politics a bit too; interesting no doubt.

A good piece of history told in first person in many regards, highly unusual that is being captured.

David 
Sgt US Army 1980-83

[old2soon]

So far, this appears to be an excellent series; one needs to withhold final judgement till the end though.

What I am really finding interesting is the various angles they are recording from.  Most instances we hear and see a snapshot from just one viewpoint.  Just a few years back the viewpoint of the Vietnamese soldier was not possible.  And then the producers dig into the politics a bit too; interesting no doubt.

A good piece of history told in first person in many regards, highly unusual that is being captured.

David 
Sgt US Army 1980-83

                 What I found very telling was the then Lt. who is now a high ranking officer moved by the deaths of so many of his men. Talking the North Vietnamese Lt. here. And the revelation that he Forced himself to NOT cry or show emotion. He also revealed that we-The U S of A Military-could be beaten if they-Army of North Vietnam-grabbed us-U S of A-by the belt. Getting input from so many sides-U S of A Military the North Vietnamese Military the politicians and the media and All the first hand accounts are bringing to light certain things I was Not aware of being confined to my carrier and only the Stars and Stripes-news paper-for news. In the 60s we did NOT have instant access to news. As an aside see if you can find another item I caught on PBS called-They Were our Fathers. Kids born while their father served in Nam and got killed there. First one the featured was a U S Navy crew lost in March of 1968 from VS 23 flying from the U S S Yorktown C V S 10. My old squadron and my old Ship-but by March of 68 I had been Honorably Discharged. Gotta keep watching The Vietnam War and see how this finishes out. RIDE SAFE.

[Patrick]

I was mainly referring to JFK but even LBJ's Great Society wasn't out of a sense of altruism... As he bragged, he was just trying to guarantee a certain segment of society become loyal Democrat voters for "The next 200 years."

He was brilliant as 90+% of that certain segment are loyal democrat voters.  The rest must be racist.   

Kinda makes me think of what President Lincoln once said, but, LBJ certainly fooled almost a whole segment of society didn't he.

[3fan4life]

Wow... I did a little poking on the perceived political slant of this documentary, and I find pundits on both sides decrying it, so I guess that's a good sign...

Reading this article evidently the whole "trope" of returning soldiers being mistreated was misleading and was dreamed up just to make demonstrators look bad...

The film is misleading at the outset in quoting an American soldier who recounts the pain of his homecoming, insinuating that veterans were maltreated in the United States – a trope often used to blame antiwar activists for creating this allegedly anti-veteran and divisive climate.

Source - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/burns-vietnam-documentary-promotes-misleading-history_us_59bf4922e4b0390a1564df2b

I can tell you that I saw the hurt in my oldest Brother's eyes as he recounted to me being spit upon and called a "Baby Killer" in the airport when he returned from Viet Nam.

It WASN'T made up.

[malito650]

We have 25 entries so far on the Ken Burns program and the thoughts seem to vary widely.  How many of the 25 are Vietnam combat vets ?   I'm one.   D 3/7  199th LIB   4-69 -  3-70

[old2soon]

We have 25 entries so far on the Ken Burns program and the thoughts seem to vary widely.  How many of the 25 are Vietnam combat vets ?   I'm one.   D 3/7  199th LIB   4-69 -  3-70

                 U S Navy here. CAG 55-U S S Yorktown C V S 10-V S 23. Little thing called Market Time Patrol interdicting junks and sampans. Also helped bring the Grumman C 2 A into the fleet on the west coast-V R C 50. C 2 looked like a chopped and channeled C-130 but with 2 Turbo Props stead of 4. Ran into the "protestors" twice at O'hare at different times when returning from the Orient. Read Nam. Couldn't hit or shoot the little darlins. Other than them screaming at me the thing that stands out to me bout those little darlins was how effin bad they smelled. They tried to make me feel bad about my Uniform and what I had done/would continue to do-My Duty. They-little darlins-failed. RIDE SAFE.

[Patrick]

Wow... I did a little poking on the perceived political slant of this documentary, and I find pundits on both sides decrying it, so I guess that's a good sign...

Reading this article evidently the whole "trope" of returning soldiers being mistreated was misleading and was dreamed up just to make demonstrators look bad...

The film is misleading at the outset in quoting an American soldier who recounts the pain of his homecoming, insinuating that veterans were maltreated in the United States – a trope often used to blame antiwar activists for creating this allegedly anti-veteran and divisive climate.

Source - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/burns-vietnam-documentary-promotes-misleading-history_us_59bf4922e4b0390a1564df2b

I can tell you that I saw the hurt in my oldest Brother's eyes as he recounted to me being spit upon and called a "Baby Killer" in the airport when he returned from Viet Nam.

It WASN'T made up.

Thats for sure ! It wasn't made up !

[Patrick]

So far, I've learned quite a bit. I thought I knew quite a bit before this. I guess it just goes to show that you can't believe what your government tells you, even today.

[Robert]

We should have honored the men and women who served in Nam and we really shouldn't have even been there. They did a job they did not want to do, with the politicians not allowing the US to win, which to me the politicians should have been labeled murders. The price paid by the US was not only in the price of the war but in the lives lost, the cost of lives forever destroyed because of what happened in Nam. But we see no politician helping those whose lives they destroyed or changed. If you or I did that we would be in jail like they should have been.

I dont think the US could be beaten in any war if it was one that like the first and second world wars was fought with the world as we know it at stake. Honor, pride, courage, love of family, attainable goals and home are just causes the reasons men fight, die and have something worth fighting for. Allow men to use all available weapons and means to win and support them in doing this, Vietnam was not like this and sucked the emotional as well as physical life out of the men and the US. A cost that was way to high.

Thank you for all that served.

I believe this was the start of the showing of the moral decay of the US as we knew it.

[Serk]

How many of the 25 are Vietnam combat vets ?

This was my level of involvement in the Vietnam war, sitting on my (Air Force Captain) dad's shoulders welcoming POW's home in 1973...





To those who went, I thank you for doing a thankless job as best as you could. *Salute*

[old2soon]

War I War II and Korea as I understand it We-U S of A Military-had front lines we took territory we held territory. Some of the ground pounders I Know said weren't unusual to take back a hill or a "strategic objective" MORE than once or three times with More injured More dead more moral lowered etc etc. Other than some "forts" and Major air bases we did Not seem to be holding territory. For you boots on the ground types facing the pointy end of the sword if what I stated here is incorrect PLEASE enlighten us and me. Only time I got off my Ship in the Combat Zone was when I flew. NEVER Not ONCE did I set foot on Nam. After our Mission we Always went back to the Yorktown. Hot coffee and hot food available 24/7. Another thing I remember was getting to my Squadron at around 230-235 pounds at the time. When I got back to CONUS I was right around 185-190 pounds. Working around the clock a couple times the tropics and even the heavy food would keep the weight down and/or off!    RIDE SAFE.

[Willow]

Wow... I did a little poking on the perceived political slant of this documentary, and I find pundits on both sides decrying it, so I guess that's a good sign...

Reading this article evidently the whole "trope" of returning soldiers being mistreated was misleading and was dreamed up just to make demonstrators look bad...

The film is misleading at the outset in quoting an American soldier who recounts the pain of his homecoming, insinuating that veterans were maltreated in the United States – a trope often used to blame antiwar activists for creating this allegedly anti-veteran and divisive climate.

Source - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/burns-vietnam-documentary-promotes-misleading-history_us_59bf4922e4b0390a1564df2b

I can tell you that I saw the hurt in my oldest Brother's eyes as he recounted to me being spit upon and called a "Baby Killer" in the airport when he returned from Viet Nam.

It WASN'T made up.

Thats for sure ! It wasn't made up !

My concern is that once one has observed a falsehood presented the suspicions must sharply rise as to a viewpoint agenda and a willingness to lie.  For me it turns me off or at least greatly diminishes my willingness to believe what's presented.

I will have to strongly disagree with some on this subject.  I think we should have been there.  I do wish we had done a better job of keeping the people of South Vietnam out of communist hands.  In boot camp our drill instructor told us that the involvement in Vietnam combat was what had kept the U.S. forces to advancing in tools and technique to be the best in the world.  I believed him.

It was a different kind of war than were WW I, WW  II, and Korea.  It was very much a guerrilla war, perhaps the beginning of the way things became world wide.  There are strong similarities in what has taken place in Afghanistan and Iraq.  Was it winnable?  Is any more today war winnable?  I'm not sure.  Did we, the government of the U.S., tie the hands of the combat troops?  Yes, I'm sure we did.   

The Huffington Post?  Serk? Really?

[Serk]

The Huffington Post?  Serk? Really?

I was intentionally wading into the communist leaning side of the "news" to find articles that thought the in scope documentary was right leaning...

[Willow]

The Huffington Post?  Serk? Really?

I was intentionally wading into the communist leaning side of the "news" to find articles that thought the in scope documentary was right leaning...

LOL!  You are apparently more interested than am I in what the blatantly biased "news" media thinks.

I did reread your post and realized the lie of the non-existence of mistreatment was from Huffington (what a surprise) rather than from the Ken Burns presentation. 

[Serk]

LOL!  You are apparently more interested than am I in what the blatantly biased "news" media thinks.

Not terribly concerned, but I find it interesting finding the obvious bias. There'd been discussion of this documentary being biased to the left, so I thought it'd be an interesting exercise to find examples of people who think it was biased to the right.

It seems the documentary is pretty well balanced overall, since it's got folks on the left saying it favors the right and folks on the right saving it favors the left... That's usually a good sign.

[The emperor has no clothes]

LOL!  You are apparently more interested than am I in what the blatantly biased "news" media thinks.

Not terribly concerned, but I find it interesting finding the obvious bias. There'd been discussion of this documentary being biased to the left, so I thought it'd be an interesting exercise to find examples of people who think it was biased to the right.

It seems the documentary is pretty well balanced overall, since it's got folks on the left saying it favors the right and folks on the right saving it favors the left... That's usually a good sign.

I haven't seen his latest work yet. But, I've always felt his other works were well done and unbiased.

[specialdose]

    Watching it through misty eyes. Thank you to the 58000 that gave the ultimate sacrifice. Thank you to everyone who served. Thankful I made it home. Hard to believe that was 50 yrs. ago. 67-68.

[Hacked Valk]

I'm actively avoiding watching it.  Too soon for me to relieve all that crap.  It is IRONIC Vietnam is a cruise destination for Americans now.  "Beautiful country with friendly people" as they say.