Think I have a fix for the hydrolock condition...

[indybobm]

I couldn't agree more, with you.  I think that

would be a standard practice realizing that you

work on bikes for a living. Warranty would demand

such actions.

However, in the area of rebuilding carburetors, like

the Valkyrie carburetors, I think, is not ever called

for, lacking a clear indication of a problem.  Cleaning

is the main action regarding these carburetors since

there is, for practical purposes, no wear parts in the

carburetors. 

***

Actually, if the spring tension in the float needle diminishes over time, it is a wear item and needs to be replaced.

[Ricky-D]

If you assume that the spring pressure diminishes then the only

way it could be accurately checked would be to have a base line

reference and utilize a tension/pressure measuring device for

comparison.

Myself, I think it's all smoke and mirrors.  The needle pins do not degrade.

The stock OEM ones I'm talking about.  You cannot beat HONDA engineering.

***

[BonS]

Here's a little more fuel to the fire:

[Attic Rat]

BonS  Thank you
your article states just what I have been saying. I just finished O/H a carb set today and I have been  finding that most of the carbs that I see that the floats have little to no bounce due to the spring sagging. Then when I install a new set of float valves the bounce or spring action is back to normal. Thus the spring height is back to normal, that is why I suggest that anytime you are going to O/H a set of carbs ck them out well or for 25.00 just put in a new set of float valves. It is not worth it to me to have to pull a set of carbs back down to install a set of float valves. Do it right the first time and move on to something else.

[98valk]

BonS  Thank you
your article states just what I have been saying. I just finished O/H a carb set today and I have been  finding that most of the carbs that I see that the floats have little to no bounce due to the spring sagging. Then when I install a new set of float valves the bounce or spring action is back to normal. Thus the spring height is back to normal, that is why I suggest that anytime you are going to O/H a set of carbs ck them out well or for 25.00 just put in a new set of float valves. It is not worth it to me to have to pull a set of carbs back down to install a set of float valves. Do it right the first time and move on to something else.

shouldn't that be $75+ for six float valves?

[BonS]

Amazon has six K&L float needles for $22.20 with free shipping.

http://www.amazon.com/Supply-Float-Needle-6pk-18-8955/dp/B001KOD732

[Attic Rat]

I have been using the K&L float valves for years. In fact if you go to my dealer they will sell you the K&L float valves instead of the Honda ones. That is what they use in there shop. They tell me that K&L makes them for Honda. My parts man has been with Honda for over 30 years. I just buy them from Amazon. I have never had any problems with them. I have done over 600 Valkyrie carbs with no problems. I posted this on the float valves some time ago just to let you all know where to get them at reasonable rate and not get over charged.

[98valk]

Amazon has six K&L float needles for $22.20 with free shipping.

http://www.amazon.com/Supply-Float-Needle-6pk-18-8955/dp/B001KOD732

Thanks BonS
was looking on ebay $13 for one.

AR and BonS I remember most auto carb rebuild kits in the late '70s always had new float needles in the kit.

how many miles are we looking at to replace? 75k? 100k? less?
thanks
ca

[BonS]

Amazon has six K&L float needles for $22.20 with free shipping.

http://www.amazon.com/Supply-Float-Needle-6pk-18-8955/dp/B001KOD732

Thanks BonS
was looking on ebay $13 for one.

AR and BonS I remember most auto carb rebuild kits in the late '70s always had new float needles in the kit.

how many miles are we looking at to replace? 75k? 100k? less?
thanks
ca

I don't know, CA, but I'm thinking that
1) whenever the carbs are out and needing slow jets due to build-up and clogging
2) when refreshing the fuel rail o-rings due to old age
3) if there's been carb overflow issues or a hydrolock incident
4) ???

If I'm cleaning the carbs I'd also clean the seats like IndyBobm posted earlier in this thread. I really don't have an opinion on mileage though.

[Attic Rat]

CA it has been my experience that most Valkyries need the carbs O/H about 8 to 10 years depending on how much riding you do. The more you ride the longer you can usually goes without O/H carbs. If you have a problem before then just O/H them with new o ring kits, float bowl gaskets and new float valves then you are good to go for years to come.

[moodyvalk]

The stock OEM ones I'm talking about.  You cannot beat HONDA engineering.

***

I would agree with this, BUT Keihin engineered the carburetors not Honda.  Like the same Keihin carburetors that are on my Kawasaki were not engineered by Kawasaki...

[Hook#3287]

Just wanted to say that at the suggestion of this post, and mostly what AtticRat stated, I replaced my float valves with a new set from K&L.

The difference in the float bounce, talked about in the article posted buy BonS, is huge.

This bike did a no damage hydro lock last February after a trailer ride from Ma to Fl.  I rebuilt the petcock and all was well, so I thought.

This fall while draining the carbs, two would not stop gas flow.  I pulled the tank off, and the rebuilt petcock was stuck.  ( I know, replace the OEM with a aftermarket) fixed it and it's working properly.

Pulled the carbs for inspection and convienently, this post comes up.

Could the reason the carbs would not shut off be the weakened float valve springs, from the bouncing trailer ride?

[Attic Rat]

Hook I have had this problem after trailering too

[Hook#3287]

Hook I have had this problem after trailering too

I'm wondering what would be better?  Bowls full or empty?   If full, maybe the floats won't move as much, but if empty, maybe the floats bouncing won't matter?

The trailer I used is light, an under 3K single axle one and if it isn't loaded down, it bounces a lot.

Not to mention the roads getting out of New England and NY.

[Attic Rat]

My best guess is full on the float bowls. When I trailer I just turn on the fuel and ride the bike on the trailer and tie it down and go. If it acts up when I unload it, I just ride it a little and it straightens right out. I wouldn't worry about it. It usually fixes itself.

[BonS]

Supporting what MoodyValk, AtticRat and Hook#3287 and the tech article say about new float needle springs I made a short video showing the difference between the old OEM float needles and new K&L float needles. I measured the spring force of the K&L needles and found them to be about 33% stiffer than the old OEM needles which will definitely translate into more force to close off fuel flow when the bowl is full.

Valkyrie Float Needles

[moodyvalk]

Supporting what MoodyValk, AtticRat and Hook#3287 and the tech article say about new float needle springs I made a short video showing the difference between the old OEM float needles and new K&L float needles. I measured the spring force of the K&L needles and found them to be about 33% stiffer than the old OEM needles which will definitely translate into more force to close off fuel flow when the bowl is full.

Wow, excellent video and good work!  Thank you for taking time and efforts to putting this video together.  I would chalk this up as a confirmed fix....

[Ricky-D]

by BonS

I measured the spring force of the K&L needles and found them to be about 33% stiffer than the old OEM needles which will definitely translate into more force to close off fuel flow when the bowl is full.

This statement should probably be disregarded due to the fact that all the force

developed, is from the action of the float, lever arm and fulcrum assembly.

Not the needle nor the spring. The only way a spring and it's strength will ever come

into play is when the spring cannot overcome the weight of the needle assembly itself.

This whole discussion is fruitless because it is founded on a premise of inspection

that is in contradiction with the approved procedure which Honda has published

in the service manual.

***

[BonS]

by BonS

I measured the spring force of the K&L needles and found them to be about 33% stiffer than the old OEM needles which will definitely translate into more force to close off fuel flow when the bowl is full.

This statement should probably be disregarded due to the fact that all the force

developed, is from the action of the float, lever arm and fulcrum assembly.

Not the needle nor the spring. The only way a spring and it's strength will ever come

into play is when the spring cannot overcome the weight of the needle assembly itself.

This whole discussion is fruitless because it is founded on a premise of inspection

that is in contradiction with the approved procedure which Honda has published

in the service manual.

***

The float/fulcrum acts on the spring which in turn translates into force on the needle. The force required to stop fuel flow is determined by the diameter of the fuel port that the needle is closing and the weight of the fuel column above it. The units are PSI. It's certainly not simply the weight of the float needle alone. Additional force is required to overcome any imperfections in the needle seat and that includes contamination and corrosion. This is due to the Viton having to deform to make a complete seal to the needle seat. If the forces are inadequate due to "whatever" reason then leaking results. As our carburetors do not have an overflow port the only place for the leaking fuel to go it into the engine. The intake valve may not be open but the intake port and manifold collects the fuel and when the intake valve opens the cylinder will get a gulp of liquid fuel.

[Tfrank59]

I'm certainly no carb tech, but this all sounds so complex like you could never really nail down just how much force it takes to close off the supply of fuel into the float bowl.  At this point my bike works fine, everything in the carbs is bone stock, so I hope I don't have to get into it like you guys are.  And I'll keep closing the petcock religiously whenever the motor's not running.  Just seems like it's a big crap shoot once you start messing with floats and needles and stuff--way above my pay grade!

[moodyvalk]

The float/fulcrum acts on the spring which in turn translates into force on the needle. The force required to stop fuel flow is determined by the diameter of the fuel port that the needle is closing and the weight of the fuel column above it. The units are PSI. It's certainly not simply the weight of the float needle alone. Additional force is required to overcome any imperfections in the needle seat and that includes contamination and corrosion. This is due to the Viton having to deform to make a complete seal to the needle seat. If the forces are inadequate due to "whatever" reason then leaking results. As our carburetors do not have an overflow port the only place for the leaking fuel to go it into the engine. The intake valve may not be open but the intake port and manifold collects the fuel and when the intake valve opens the cylinder will get a gulp of liquid fuel.

Yep, Agreed.

[Attic Rat]

Well done BonS. Nice video

[98valk]

[/quote]
As our carburetors do not have an overflow port the only place for the leaking fuel to go it into the engine. [/quote]

all of the bowls have a vent tube which doubles as an overflow.
Honda's fix in the service bulletin for hydro lock for the GL1500s was bowl vent tubes

[indybobm]

all of the bowls have a vent tube which doubles as an overflow.
Honda's fix in the service bulletin for hydro lock for the GL1500s was bowl vent tubes

I remember reading that bulletin. I believe it had specific instructions for running the hoses.

Since we have vent tubes, why does this not prevent hydrolock?
Are they placed too high? Clogged? Tubes run incorrectly? Just wondering.

[Tfrank59]

As our carburetors do not have an overflow port the only place for the leaking fuel to go it into the engine. [/quote]

all of the bowls have a vent tube which doubles as an overflow.
Honda's fix in the service bulletin for hydro lock for the GL1500s was bowl vent tubes
[/quote]

I haven't seen this bulletin, but at what point did they vent the bowls with overflow tubes to prevent the hydro lock--was it as early as 1998?

[indybobm]

I found this on goldwingfacts.com It is a Honda Bulletin for 1988 and older GL1500 Goldwings.
The carbs are different so I do not know if this applicable to Valkyries. In the case of the Goldwings, it was released to combat hydrolock. I do remember seeing something else about routing the Valkyrie hoses to the holes on the back of the chrome carb bracket.


http://www.goldwingfacts.com/1500%20Service%20Bulletins/1500SB1.pdf

[Bert AKA,Valkaholic]

thanks for all the replies guys and good questions!!!

so this is not what I would call a confirmed fix at this time but its for sure one step closer than what we have imo...

I have thought of a longer needle, that would be perfect except the length would have to be exact to have the float level at the correct spot, i like the idea of some time of way to adjust the height

wish i had a brand new float to compare these floats with that would prove or disprove my assumption of the warped floats.

I Have Been Having Repeated Hydro-Lock On One Of My Valkyries Also. I Have Had The Carbs Off And I Noticed The Floats Bottoming Out And The Needles Still Fit Loose In The Seat. I Like Your Theory On Putting Small Springs On The Needle Jets. ( Some More Info On The Springs And Detailed Installation) Would Be Helpful. I Also Believe That New Floats Would Fix The Problem, But How Long Will They Last Before They Fail With This Ethanol Fuel. I May Order A Set Of Floats To Install And See If They Are Comparably Different.

[BonS]

As our carburetors do not have an overflow port the only place for the leaking fuel to go it into the engine.

all of the bowls have a vent tube which doubles as an overflow.
Honda's fix in the service bulletin for hydro lock for the GL1500s was bowl vent tubes

The lowest point of entry into the throat of the carburetor for overflowing fuel is through the main jet taper needle. The vent tube is well above this and near the top of the carburetor. The fuel bowl overflows through the taper needle and into the throat of the carburetor. The only thing holding the fuel back at this point is the butterfly. The butterfly is not a great seal so the fuel slowly leaks past the butterfly and downward into the intake manifold.

Fuel will flow out of the overflow/vent tubes but only if fuel is forced in at a rate greater than it can escape through the taper needle/main jet.

I have performed this test myself and watched the fuel flow into the throat of the carburetor. I can verify this with a video if you'd like.


I'd love to see what Honda recommends for the GL1500 to see if it applies to our carburetors.

[indybobm]

I'd love to see what Honda recommends for the GL1500 to see if it applies to our carburetors.

This is the bulletin but it does not apply for the Valkyrie. Completely different carb and setup.
Looks like Honda rolled the dice on the float valve doing its job.

http://www.goldwingfacts.com/1500%20Service%20Bulletins/1500SB1.pdf

[Ricky-D]

Actually, in this instance, the assumption is incorrect.

It's the vacuum actuated fuel stopcock you should be referring to.

And as a side note: Honda relies on every part to be able to do it's job. Duh.

***

[BonS]

The GL1500 tech recall/service bulletin that adds a vacuum operated petcock shows that Honda learned a long time ago that they needed a second line of defense against hydrolock with this engine. Members on this board learned a long time ago that this same petcock wears out (as does everything). However, it does it with little fanfare and quietly puts the engine at risk, once again, of hydrolock.

I'm comfortable with a manual petcock and Dan-Marc automatic fuel valve (that I've never heard of a confirmed failure). It's a much simpler approach with fewer failure modes than the OEM vacuum operated petcock. And I'll consider my float needles as a maintenance item going forward: Belt-and-suspenders.