A religious question for Robert.

[3fan4life]

OK... so if an "innocent child" dies... he goes to heaven... wouldn't the best thing we could do for them is kill them before the age of accountability?  I mean, what's 80 years on this miserable ball of dirt compared to ETERNITY in heaven? 

Disclaimer... I don't seriously BELIEVE that... but it's a theological question that has plagued me for decades that I have never gotten a solid answer to.

To anyone that I have offended in this thread (and it was a spin off of another one) I apologize.  I really do think about this stuff a lot, and I find that generally speaking, persons on this forum are more intelligent than the average American.  When we keep the dialogue civil, I think there is much that can be learned.

I can't read Bible verse.  3Fan, I very much appreciate the translation.  I think what I got from that is... "You have to accept Jesus as your savior, unless you're a Jew, and then you get a pass."  My next question is...

"Do you have to be a genetic Jew or is a Jewish convert grandfathered in too?"

One last question, well maybe not.

"Am I doomed to hell if I never accept Jesus as my savior?"  I think I live a lot more "Christian" life than most people I know.  I work hard.  Try to do good.  Give charity.  Try very hard to never screw anyone over.  Help people out as much as I can.  Don't steal, lie or cheat.  Is it REALLY irrelevant how good I am when I am alive?  God will REALLY choose a murderous, rapist, child molester over me, IF he accepts Jesus as his savior on hid deathbed?
  Jabba

Jabba you are welcome. As a Christian I am glad to attempt to answer (to the best of my ability) any question that anyone seriously has about my faith. I don’t go around attempting to beat people over the head with the bible because I don’t believe that is the right thing to do.

I didn’t mean to imply that Jews get a free pass into heaven. I only intended to answer your question as to why they are God’s favored people.

The question about who gets into heaven if they rejected Jesus in this life is highly theological. In other words you will find that there are different responses from different scholars.

My best understanding is that all of the people left on earth after the rapture will face the great tribulation and during that time they will have the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Some will accept him others will not (just as they do today).

What I am unclear about is the fate of those who died without accepting Jesus. Some believe that their soul is doomed to hell for all eternity. Other’s think that when they stand before the great white throne of judgement that God will look at what was in their hearts.

What all Christian theologians do agree upon is that those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will go to heaven.

You argue (for lack of a better word) that you are “good”.

I don’t doubt for a single minute that you are a good person. It is possible to live a Godly Life without God in it. A person can never accept God or Jesus and still live a Godly life. Even to the point of doing most of the things in their life that God wants them to do. Love thy neighbor etc.

But our “good works” in life will never guarantee us a place in heaven. Our place in heaven is a gift given to us by God through the sacrifice of his Son Jesus. Because it is a gift there is nothing that we can do to earn it, we can only accept it or we can reject it.

There have been many good questions and answers throughout this thread. I have been pleasantly surprised that it hasn’t deteriorated into a big fight.

Jabba you truly seem to me that you are looking for answers to some serious questions. I am glad at any time to attempt to answer any questions that you may have. To the best of my ability.

Feel free to e-mail or PM me anytime. I say this because I realize that there are those here who would prefer that no religious discussion whatsoever take place on the open board and I’m not trying to “pick any fights”.

[3fan4life]

Why is it that when the prostitute washed jesus’s feet with her hair, then asked for forgiveness, he said “your sins are forgiven, go and SIN NO MORE”.  But so many Christians believe that they’re forgiven no matter what, just because they cry “jesus, forgive me…..” they can do what ever they want.  That’s the hypocrisy of Christianity.  Once saved, always saved.  You can kill anyone you want, just as long as you “love jesus”.  Even though he taught, love your neighbor as yourself, as the second greatest commandment.

Alph I will have to agree and disagree with you here.

I would have to say that people who believe that they can do anything that they want to do and then just ask for forgiveness aren't really Christians.

I realize that they may profess to be. But, I would argue that by their actions they prove that Jesus isn't living in their heart and therefore they aren't Christians.

Which would make them "hypocrits".

There is a saying that, "Christians aren't perfect, they're forgiven".

This is true.

God knows that no matter how hard we try that man is always going to come up short.

Unfortunately I must agree with your perspective that many people seem to take this to mean that they have a free pass.

The one thing that I must say is that if a person truly has accepted Jesus into their life then they will never "sin" on purpose thinking that they have a "get out of jail free" card.

[bigdog99]

Jabba,
I to feel that you live life more like a "christian" than most of those you know. i feel that you have in you what God tells us to do in the Bible to each other. As far as going to heaven or not, it is said that the "anti-Christ will come first and fool people into believing that he is the returning Christ. i also know that he is not destined for heaven just because he acts like Christ.
I believe that God has you searching, i believe that He has already set his sites on you. For what ever reason, he has a plan that is bigger than anything you can make on your own. He just wants to let you make that decision so that it will be real for you.
Knowing you already from a brief time in our lives, i know there is more to you than you would like to let on. You are truly a great soul and born to lead, what that is, is only up to you and God.
The pleasure is all mine to know you, and watching you gorw into what God wants you te be will be awsome.
there, i have had my mushy time, i look forward to riding with you anytime!!

[Robert]

That is correct it was so only those that sought would understand. The Bible is still the same way, the reason some dont get anything out of it because it takes the Holy Spirit to put all the sentences in a way that reveals what God has to say to you. It took 2 times of reading the Bible all the way through till the Holy Spirit started to take verses and phrases and put them together. He also started to reveal what certain phrases really meant. This opened up the Bible and truly made it a personal experience. Also the word has a cleansing property the more you read the more it cleanses you. Gods word goes out and does not come back void is the scripture for that. The word is alive today as it was when it was given. In part because the Holy Spirit makes it come alive. This how God can give you a personal word through reading the Bible. But if you read just to read then thats all you will get out of it and it will remain dry and puzzling. Have you read your Bible today and asked the Holy Spirit to reveal things to you. Read with a question in your mind to be answered you will be surprised when all of a sudden maybe even being bored there will be a phrase or phrases that jump out at you and you know that it was for you. How can a book you pick up to read constantly reveal new things to you no matter how many times you read it.

Alph the question isn't about the other people the question is about you. You are not responsible for their walk and they are not responsible for yours. So rather than concentrating on how bad they are how about concentrating on how good Jesus is. How much He wants a relationship with you. Allow Him to be the Judge He is and you can be the child of God you are. Release them all into Gods hands and dont let satan keep you out. Let the healing begin and let God do His work. You are not God and He is not blind.  It is not good for them to fall into the hands of a angry God. He has a way to deal with people that is very hard to take.

[elraque]

Parabolas are not parallel rays, they are a set of points equidistant from a point and a line.
I knew 4 quarters of calculus would come in handy one day.
-RP

Parabolas are not parallel rays. But parallel rays that strike the surface of a parabola are ALL reflected by the surface of the parabola (whether in 2 or more dimensions) and ALL meet at the focal point. (We might say that that focal point is the Truth.) *

*I, too, have a bit of mathematics in my background.

[elraque]

Parabolas are not parallel rays, they are a set of points equidistant from a point and a line.
I knew 4 quarters of calculus would come in handy one day.
-RP

Maybe if you were versed in Biblical mathematics, you would understand.  Biblical mathematics also describes pi (ratio of diameter to circumference of a circle) as 3.00000000000, while those of us who are not ready to “receive the truth” know it as 3.141592653589.

HUNH??
The value of pi actually depends on the shape of the multidimensional universe in which your mathematical system exists. For the concept that we have of this (approximately) 3 dimensional univers, your value of pi is accurate to about 12 decimal places or so...

But that's pretty tangential to the original subject of this thread.

[fstsix]

 ??? Now this is some good stuff! but i must put one more of these in.. ???

[Robert]

Did you ever wonder when you go through things or just feel like your prayers go nowhere that God hears you? I think this scripture is one that gives me comfort when I feel like this

Joh 11:41  So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.
Joh 11:42  "I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me."
 
He did not shout, cry, perform any ceremony just spoke in a normal voice. He could have been anywhere too. It doesn't take performance,ceremony,yelling or anything that religion tells you to do just from your heart tell Him what is happening in your life. Any where you are at any time He always hears and understands this is what He wants from us. Once you tell Him then try to listen and see what He tells you dont rush off for the best is yet to come.

sa 49:16  "Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands;

[stormrider]

Hey Jabba and Fudgie. Stormrider here. Normally don't get into the try and convince me threads but, I do have a short story to tell.
First off, I turned my life over to God in October '76. That's a long story for another day.
Lots of things have happened over the years that have convinced me without a doubt that I made the right decision. One that stands out happened in about 1998.
I was on the way to take care of some business in Abbeville and going 431N. As I approached the intersection of 431 and hwy 99, this voice, the one I hear lots of times, tells me to go to a certain persons house. I would need to turn right on 99. No explanation. Just to go.
Well, I was working, so I proceeded on up 431, choosing to ignore the voice. The voice spoke to me again, about 1/4 mile up 431 past 99. This time it said GO NOW!!!
So, I made a u-turn and went back to 99 and traveled towards this persons house. I argued the whole way there, telling the voice that this person wouldn't be home, "he's a truck driver and he'll be on the road."
To make this short but to get the point, I pull up to his place and there sits his rig. I go to the back door and before I knock he comes to the door. It is exactly 11:55 AM. I remember glancing at my clock as I pulled up.
My friend is all in tears. Says he'd been praying all morning that God would send someone by because at 12 noon, he was going to the woods and blow his brains out because of something he had done and couldn't live with himself any longer.
We talked and prayed, and yes, we read the Word for about 7 hours. He became convinced that there is nothing beyond God's grace and he found what he needed to get through what had happened.
Saw him back 6 months ago and he is doing great.
Well, there are lots of people with lots of similar stories, that would be harder for me to explain away than to explain how they happened.
Faith, is what it takes. Hope you both find it if you're not already there.
Take care and love you.

Stormrider.

[Robert]

Awesome God so loves us

[Jabba]

Hey Jabba and Fudgie. Stormrider here. Normally don't get into the try and convince me threads but, I do have a short story to tell.
First off, I turned my life over to God in October '76. That's a long story for another day.
Lots of things have happened over the years that have convinced me without a doubt that I made the right decision. One that stands out happened in about 1998.
I was on the way to take care of some business in Abbeville and going 431N. As I approached the intersection of 431 and hwy 99, this voice, the one I hear lots of times, tells me to go to a certain persons house. I would need to turn right on 99. No explanation. Just to go.
Well, I was working, so I proceeded on up 431, choosing to ignore the voice. The voice spoke to me again, about 1/4 mile up 431 past 99. This time it said GO NOW!!!
So, I made a u-turn and went back to 99 and traveled towards this persons house. I argued the whole way there, telling the voice that this person wouldn't be home, "he's a truck driver and he'll be on the road."
To make this short but to get the point, I pull up to his place and there sits his rig. I go to the back door and before I knock he comes to the door. It is exactly 11:55 AM. I remember glancing at my clock as I pulled up.
My friend is all in tears. Says he'd been praying all morning that God would send someone by because at 12 noon, he was going to the woods and blow his brains out because of something he had done and couldn't live with himself any longer.
We talked and prayed, and yes, we read the Word for about 7 hours. He became convinced that there is nothing beyond God's grace and he found what he needed to get through what had happened.
Saw him back 6 months ago and he is doing great.
Well, there are lots of people with lots of similar stories, that would be harder for me to explain away than to explain how they happened.
Faith, is what it takes. Hope you both find it if you're not already there.
Take care and love you.

Stormrider.

That is a very spiritual story, and I have some like that myself, though not so dire.  However... that doesn't get me any closer to Chrisitanity than any of my own experiences.  There is certainly something out there we don't undersatnd.  At least I don't.  I have that voice.  I listen.  I am just not sure it's God.  It might be.  But if it was... wouldn't he tell me so? 

I am going to keep doing what I am doing for now.  I get inside a church once in a while, and I never fail to feel dirty after it.  I find myself a lot closer to "God" either on the bike, or in the woods hunting deer. 

I figure it this way... I am on pretty good terms with whatever is talking to me.  Although it's never actual words... but it guides me daily, on the bike, and in the woods.  I think it guides me in business as well, as whenever I start to do something that would not be very nice... lets say "Christian", I get a littel tap on the back of the head to remind me to do it how I'd like it to be done to me.


Thanks to everyone for their thoughts.  I'm not any closer than I was... but I still appreciate everyone's testimony.

Jabba

[stormrider]

I know I didn't attempt to answer any questions in your original post, just the thread seemed to move in the direction of trying to convince or maybe persuade. And not trying to do either. I suppose we all have different experiences and trying to put words to how God has worked in my life. As far as the rest of the world, well, can't answer for anyone else.

Let's ride.

[Jabba]

I get it brother.  I WANT to be convinced.  I just have not really been ever yet.

I would like to be a religious man.  I just can't get there.  Maybe someday...

Jabba

[Chattanooga Mark]

You're right Jabba, you're not their yet. You don't want to be a 'religious' man. One of the things Jesus did was to tear down 'religion'. God doesn't want you to get or have religion. He wants a relationship with you. More than that, He wants you to want a relationship with Him.

Seriously, read the Lee Stroebel book A Case For Christ.

All the best,

Mark

[Robert]

Storm this is exactly what this post is for not to convince but to see how God really works and that He will work in anyone's life. These stories are not about religion which is exactly what makes the difference in Jesus. WE serve a God who is alive that takes part in our lives that helps us when we need it. This what makes Christianity different, but some Christians never get the full benefit of all that God has to offer them. Sometimes they say Im not going any further. Sometimes people hear a warning or a small voice giving them encouragement  not realizing its the Lord. So when you hear stories like this it makes you think, once you think you question once you question you try to find a answer. Look at how many people responded and have a relationship with the Lord that we may never have known about. Our society is trying to put God on the back burner even to the point of saying Merry Christmas makes you feel like a serial killer. The more people talk about the Lord the more it will seem natural for everyone to believe. the more we hear stories like these the more we will want to experience them for ourselves once we come to the Lord. Then we will know the difference between relationship and religion. There wont be questions like who believes, or there's no difference between religions or thats how wars started. Maybe just maybe if people hear these stories and start to question their faith being Christians they will want to step out in their faith to see if God does work in their life to get closer to Him and to finally be the people of God we were called to be. So people like Alph and SE will have a good witness. So that maybe we can pray and God will hear us and turn from the wicked ways that are happening in Washington and restore us. For our children and childrens, children. Like I said before nothing is set in stone we decide our own future but its not Buddha or Mohamed that will change it for us, only the Lord and only by prayer and even helping in the name of the Lord. Being selfless in situations knowing that there WILL be a reward in heaven not some no man land.

Jabba you need to ask the Lord only He can convince you. Ask for a confirmation or just ask to speak with you and let you know who He really is.

[Jabba]

Robert... I have asked 1000 times.  When I was young.  When I was hurt.  When I lost my mom.  When I lost my dad.  I have asked many many times.  I have never had the lightning strike, many of you seem to have gotten. 

Yet, I can't believe that I am still alive sometimes.  I have been too close to cashing in my chips on several occasions.  Sometimes... I wonder if my job here was to eventually sire my son at 39.  I worry that I have led a charmed life thus far, in order to get him here... and now, there may no longer be a need for me. 

I just have not been able to reconcile all the "misled" people out there... regardless of your version of the Truth.  Too many lost souls, too many false options.  Too much strife, and too much suffering.  Too much sadness.


I think a lot about the alien conspiracy theory.  Not all of that seems all that far off if you ask me.

Jabba

[elraque]

I get it brother.  I WANT to be convinced.  I just have not really been ever yet.

I would like to be a religious man.  I just can't get there.  Maybe someday...

Jabba

Jabba, back to my original, fundamental question... Do you believe in the Creator (God)?

Seems to me that lots of people want to preach to you and to ensure your salvation. I'd like to know more about you... Starting with this question about the Creator.

Do ya, or dontcha? (Hint: HE believes in YOU!)

[Robert]

Jabba I believe the problem is not that you dont hear from the Lord but that you dont know His voice. This again is the problem with the church they are supposed to offer training in hearing the Lord. There are 3 voices that we have one is you your own thoughts, the other is satan and the other is the Lord. In the Bible Jesus said my sheep know my voice, well unless you have it confirmed to you that what you are hearing is indeed from the Lord how are you supposed to know? Its not a lighting bolt or like Bill Cosby and Noah skit. Its a knowing or a thought that all of a sudden you know that thought wasn't from you and yet it gave you a direction or answer or wisdom that you needed for a particular situation. I had my nephew come see me and I knew why he was there but he had no idea. We talked awhile and the topic turned to the Lord and I prayed for him. Well he was very similar he had situations that he knew it wasn't him and he just shrugged it off. Till after the prayer and a few weeks later he came back to me and said I was right it was the Lord all along. As he thought back through these situations and knowing it was beyond himself he realized who it really was. The Bible says where there is confusion there is every evil thing. The enemy uses confusion to dull the faith and hope of people. If we dont know who we hear and shrug it off or just keep hearing and yet dont determine who we are really hearing then we become dull of hearing. We actually turn off the thoughts/voices/feelings and then we train ourselves not to listen. It is much better to deal with each if its you then you know your own thoughts and actions if it is the enemy he will tell us things we know are bad but sometimes he will tell us half truths this is the hardest to sort through. Half truths have just enough truth to sound good but there is something that says I dont know. It only later after we follow this half truth that we get slapped up side the head and say Im not going to do that again. Then we turn off the whole thing. When the Lord speaks it will always be confirmed in the Bible and will always be to our benefit and never will be condemnation. As powerful as God is He always is a gentleman and gives us the choice but encourages us to a direction. In this encouragement its loving and solid and not vague. It may not be all the info, Storm was told to go not all the details. You will find that this is how the Lord works most of the time. He tells us what He wants us to do but usually dosent give us the full game plan till we get there. Then fills us with His words and presence and we know from there. A real easy way to stop the enemy is just say I plead the Blood of Jesus over my thoughts my hearing and life. If you get silence or something like cursing you know whos voice that is.  I am not saying anything you dont already know if you think about it you just didn't know about the Blood. This is in part the explanation of the witness out in the wilds of Africa, this is all in the spirit and in all of us. If you just turn your attention to the Lord in your life ask for help in hearing Him and listen, kinda like listening with one ear then all of a sudden you hear. It could be anytime just be attentive and listen and the more you acknowledge Him the more you will hear Him. Its just training thats all. When this happens it will become easy to acknowledge who He is and accept Him as Lord there will be no question. Each of us has to come to this point where we know that we know that we know its the Lord talking to us. Once we do then it becomes us our choice as to what we do either accept Him or reject him. This happened to me when I was 10 in my room I remember telling Him I wanted to do my own thing. I didn't realize how good He really is and thought I could never live to His expectations. I sang Jesus love me but heard preaching of sin and condemnation and sometimes in Latin that served no earthly purpose except to further the works of the enemy and turn away a little boy who didn't think he was good enough. What a mistake that was but God has been gracious to me and never left me and always protected me even when I didn't know it was Him. At 38 I came to know the Lord and accepted Him as my Lord by picking up my Bible and saying I want to find out who this God really is. It has been a awesome journey I wish I had come to Him in that room that day. Things would have been different but I am blessed to know Him now and so thats why I dont like religion its only people that didn't take the time to go and find who is the author of the book is. Everyone has the choice, Everyone makes the decision, Everyone has a witness, we choose to listen or not to let Him in or not or just to put Him off. WE MAKE THE CHOICE.
   Jabba     pray ask the Lord to lead you to a good spirit filled church if you feel dirty then deal with it with God let Him free and liberate you break the bondage that hold you. HE CAN, AND WILL DO IT , AND MOST OF ALL HE LOVES YOU. With God all things are Possible.

[fstsix]

To all the Brothers in Christ here on this board,, can't help but to say thanks for your encouragement even for myself,,The big thing for me was fear of death my whole life,,the unknown where will i go If the Word really does talk about haven or hell, 1981 that all changed,,Big bang moment? nope,, a very Dark moment in my life after my father died,,,I really felt alone,,Dad raised me Himself and was took from me,,He was always there and then he was gone at 49 years old,,"Cancer". I blamed God for his death, a year later the Most Beautiful Woman walked into my life, She was a soft spoken girl and said she loved Jesus,,It was a battle for me i guess i was jealous because she always had a smile and had something about her that was different, Well after a year of marriage i realized that i was going to be left behind and knew my life was not right, after a loss of a best friend and my wife"s brother took his life, got real depressed got down on my knee and asked this Jesus guy for help,,asked him if he was really True to make Himself real and take away my pain,,28 years ago he has Provided for my family,,wife was healed of cancer, gave me a Son, and even in today's economy as a Contractor i have been busy enough to even turn down work that my son and i can't get to. But most of all i have no fear of death,,I look forward to being with the Lord,,He can take me anytime. 

MercyMe "I Can Only Imagine"	powered by Aeva

[vanagon40]

Jabba,

Only because it is you and I like you (and only because I think you are seriously searching for answers and not just stirring the pot).  Otherwise I avoid the religious posts (and political posts) like the plague except to post a relevant joke.  Unfortunately, I cannot think of a relevant joke.

First off, if you are waiting for the “lightning strike,” it may never come.  I think only a few people are as lucky as Saul/Paul to be struck blind so that God could appear to them.  Other people may have a “lightning strike” moment of revelation.  But I believe most of the rest of us never have a “lightning strike revelation.”

As an engineer, I was (and still am) a lot like you.  I figured that religion was like a riddle and once I was able to solve the puzzle, I would understand it.  I have become convinced it does not work that way.

While this may seem to be a “cop out” (yes, I grew up in the 60's and 70's) most of the religious tenets are mysteries, not subject to explanation.  If a person can accept that God created the World, and if a person can accept that God can do anything (including raising Jesus from the dead after three days), it is not difficult to understand any miracle.

On the other hand, if a person wants to accept the Bible as the absolute “Word of God,” but then try to puzzle out and solve every inconsistency in the Bible (and every inconsistency between the Bible and real life), one will quickly lose faith.

No one has an explanation why three year olds in third world countries starve to death.  No one has an explanation of why evil people live while good people die.  The Church accepts that life is not fair.  So if a person is attempting to understand why bad things happen to good people, religion has no answer.

I guess my answer is the quote from Fred Gailey (actor John Payne) in Miracle on 34th Street: “Faith is believing when common sense tells you not to.”

John, I wish I could give you an answer (or even that someone else could give you an answer).  But no one will be able to answer all your questions.  If you want to look at religion as a puzzle to be solved, I expect you will never be able to solve the puzzle.  Faith is something you just have to accept, even though it often makes no sense.

There is a story that St. Augustine was walking on the beach contemplating the mystery of the Trinity.  Then he saw a boy in front of him who had dug a hole in the sand and was going out to the sea again and again and bringing some water to pour into the hole.  St. Augustine asked him, “What are you doing?”  “I’m going to pour the entire ocean into this hole.”  “That is impossible, the whole ocean will not fit in the hole you have made” said St. Augustine.  The boy replied, “And you cannot fit the Trinity in your tiny little brain.”  The story concludes by saying that the boy vanished as St. Augustine had been talking to an angel.

http://www.frtommylane.com/stories/God/Trinity/saint_augustine.htm

[Chattanooga Mark]

Jabba, Look at it this way. Every minute of every day, someone, somewhere is making the choice to submit to the Lord and all heaven is rejoicing. That's just what it is, a choice. You actively make the decision to stop living life on your terms and by your standard. By reading your posts it sounds like you're 'right their'.   

All the best,

Mark

[Robert]

Jabba God will help you but You have to want to be healed and free of all the pain including seeking comfort in the wrong places. Just ask for forgiveness and then release the hurt and anger to Him and forgive those that hurt you and put them into His hands then you will start to hear clearly. Dont think that by forgiving them you are letting them off. It is never by our own hand that we can punish someone for doing us wrong. Anger,jealousy,hate,unforgiveness we were never designed to be able to handle these emotions. They are destructive to us and bring destruction. By releasing  these people into Gods hands He knows what has happened and how, He is the one that can do whats necessary. By holding them you hold yourself.  The blessing far outweighs the holding on to unforgiveness. If that is not possible ask Him to help you forgive them.

Mar 11:25  "Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.
Mar 11:26  ["But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."]

[x]

I hate these religion threads, I always feel so unclean whenever I find myself nodding in agreement to Bobbo, Strong Eagle, etc... 

It's OK... it only hurts for a little while.   

[alph]

I get it brother.  I WANT to be convinced.  I just have not really been ever yet.

I would like to be a religious man.  I just can't get there.  Maybe someday...

Jabba

Jabba,

Stop beating yourself up wanting to believe in something that doesn’t make sense to you.  I don’t understand nuclear physics, but I know people that do, so I’m not going to study it and beat myself up because I can’t understand it. 

Apparently someone is forcing you to accept something, or to do something that is not part of your life style.  It’s like me trying to force my kid to eat something other then pizza, until he’s ready to try something different, HE’S GOING TO EAT PIZZA!!  This whole religion thing is the same way with you.  Someone is trying to force something down your throat, and I don’t think you want to eat it. 

This is my feelings about the whole “jesus” crowd.  They want to force their religion down everyone’s throat, like it or not!!  It’s the inquisition all over again!!  If you don’t fit their mold, you’re going to hell!! If you don’t believe in their description of righteousness, then you’re a heathen!!

If you want to believe, then in time you will.  Until then, stop beating yourself up thinking you’re not worthy of life because you don’t believe.  BTW, we’re all different; if god wanted to have “cookie cutter” believers then he would have made us that way, right??? 

[Jabba]

I appreciate your comment Alph.  But that's not really true.  My wife would like to be more active in the church, but she does not push me at all.  Not one bit.  I get into a church maybe once or twice a year, and that's it. 

This is really all about me.

I am a scientist, and engineer.  (In fact, I ran a nuclear power plant in the Navy on the USS Omaha )  I am always questioning EVERYTHING.  This is but another of the things I am always pondering.  I like to different viewpoints.   

It's like arguing politics.  There are not a lot of votes to be swayed.  I don't know that I can be swayed... but I still appreciate everyone's viewpoint.

I don't BEAT myself up about it.  But I am pragmatic at the same time.  If the nonbelievers are right, and the bible thumpers are wrong, none of us will ever know.  If the bible thumpers are right... there are a lot of us in for a real screw.

In THAT regard... I WANT to believe.  But I also just CAN'T decide to believe and then do it.  I have tried.

Jabba

[3fan4life]

Jabba,

I began typing a reply and by the time I finished it was way too long to post here.

I'm going to send that to you as a word file in an email from amsoil(removethis)deals4u@gmail

Hopefully you will find something in it helpful.

In the meantime, I did find this link:

http://www.stillvoices.org/Essays/Search4God.asp

I only scimmed the article but I did find some very interesting things in it.

[Chrisj CMA]

What sets Jesus apart from all the other "heads of religions" is the fact that Jesus is risen......he is alive and the one intercessor to the father between us and God.  Budda, Muhammed, Jim Jones, all the others were followed as wise philosophers and maybe had some good ideas for this life.  The Bible says if we only have hope in this life, then we are as creatures most miserable.  Jesus is the only one that is "preparing" a place for believers. 


Now, the Bible also says this this will be foolishness to those that dont believe, and Im sure I can guess who will chime in and claim as much.

But for You Jabba, its the POWER of God if you believe. 

Heres a question.  When does a person get saved.........when they say some memorized sinners prayer off some TV set or when they confess with their mouth that they believe Jesus being God is our WAY to heaven through salvation by HIS sacrifice on the cross?

The Bible doesnt offer a "sinners prayer" or claim you have to invite Jesus into your heart...........Romans 10:9,10 says it the best.....simply believe and say so and Jesus will claim you as his at the judgement.

Believe all this is foolishness and see how Jesus feels about you at the judgement that big day.

[Robert]

If we have received Christ himself in our inmost hearts, our new life will manifest its intimate acquaintance with him by a walk of faith in him. Walking implies action. Our relationship is not to be confined to our closet; we must carry out into practical effect that which we believe. If a man walks in Christ, then he so acts as Christ would act; for Christ being in him, his hope, his love, his joy, his life, he is the reflex of the image of Jesus; and men say of that man, “He is like his Master; he lives like Jesus Christ.” Walking signifies progress. “So walk in him”; proceed from grace to grace, run forward until you reach the uttermost degree of knowledge that a man can attain concerning our Beloved. Walking implies continuance. There must be a perpetual abiding in Christ. How many Christians think that in the morning and evening they ought to come into the company of Jesus, and may then give their hearts to the world all the day: but this is poor living; we should always be with him, treading in his steps and doing his will. Walking also implies habit. When we speak of a man’s walk and conversation, we mean his habits, the constant tenor of his life. Now, if we sometimes enjoy Christ, and then forget him; sometimes call him ours, and anon lose our hold, that is not a habit; we do not walk in him. We must keep to him, cling to him, never let him go, but live and have our being in him. “As ye have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him”; persevere in the same way in which ye have begun, and, as at the first Christ Jesus was the trust of your faith, the source of your life, the principle of your action, and the joy of your spirit, so let him be the same till life’s end; the same when you walk through the valley of the shadow of death, and enter into the joy and the rest which remain for the people of God. O Holy Spirit, enable us to obey this heavenly precept.

[x]

What cracks me up is that all the Christians posting here are absolutely certain they have the truth.  The fact is, they have a point of view, just like everyone has a point of view.
 
When those that are convinced that they have the 'only way' to salvation and spirituality finally wake up and realize that there is more than one 'right way', they (and us) will be ahead of the game.
 
Jesus was a man.  Jesus and Buddha conveyed much the same message.  The kingdom is within, and is now... not some far away place that you go when you croak.

[Chrisj CMA]

What cracks me up is that all the Christians posting here are absolutely certain they have the truth.  The fact is, they have a point of view, just like everyone has a point of view.
 
When those that are convinced that they have the 'only way' to salvation and spirituality finally wake up and realize that there is more than one 'right way', they (and us) will be ahead of the game.
 
Jesus was a man.  Jesus and Buddha conveyed much the same message.  The kingdom is within, and is now... not some far away place that you go when you croak.

Yes, the kingdom is here and now for us in this life..........but its also for all eternity, the question is will you spend eternity with God or seperated from God.  SE, you are certainely entitled to your "point of view" I respect that.....I just wouldnt want to be of that particular "point of view" at the judgement

[x]

What cracks me up is that all the Christians posting here are absolutely certain they have the truth.  The fact is, they have a point of view, just like everyone has a point of view.
 
When those that are convinced that they have the 'only way' to salvation and spirituality finally wake up and realize that there is more than one 'right way', they (and us) will be ahead of the game.
 
Jesus was a man.  Jesus and Buddha conveyed much the same message.  The kingdom is within, and is now... not some far away place that you go when you croak.

Yes, the kingdom is here and now for us in this life..........but its also for all eternity, the question is will you spend eternity with God or seperated from God.  SE, you are certainely entitled to your "point of view" I respect that.....I just wouldnt want to be of that particular "point of view" at the judgement

Proof of my point.  Your point of view is that there will be a judgment.  Hope you make it.  My point of view is that if there is a judgment you probably aren't going to make it.  It's just a point of view.

[Robert]

Eagle if you really believe there is more than one way then you should applaud us doing your work since all will make it into the Kingdom. Who cares if they are Christian they will make it. No worries The fact that Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven has come indicates that you are right to some extent we do have the Kingdom of heaven now and when we die. The real difference is we have a living God not a dead prophet or oracle or whatever. He helps us now and when we die. So be happy for us.

[Robert]

OH SE when you can have someone healed by praying for them right there and then, then let me know I would really like to know how you deal with demons, spirits and lets say for the world ghosts? Do you have authority over them to be able to cast them out? I am really being serious here I would like to know maybe you can explain this to me.

[Chrisj CMA]

Eagle if you really believe there is more than one way then you should applaud us doing your work since all will make it into the Kingdom. Who cares if they are Christian they will make it. No worries The fact that Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven has come indicates that you are right to some extent we do have the Kingdom of heaven now and when we die. The real difference is we have a living God not a dead prophet or oracle or whatever. He helps us now and when we die. So be happy for us.

Robert, we know when we found TRUTH........he hopes were wrong.

I only have one question for those that believe like SE that many roads, (that the Bible says leads to destruction) actually are alternate ways to heaven and there is no judgement; acountability.....heres my question?


"So....Punk, do you feel lucky?"
Dirty Harry/Clint Eastwood

[Bobbo]

Robert, we know when we found TRUTH........he hopes were wrong.

I only have one question for those that believe like SE that many roads, (that the Bible says leads to destruction) actually are alternate ways to heaven and there is no judgement; acountability.....heres my question?


"So....Punk, do you feel lucky?"
Dirty Harry/Clint Eastwood

I have posted this question before, and no one seems willing to respond:

Your question assumes that there are only two choices to make regarding the “after-life”, Christian God, or no god.  What if the question is multiple choice?  Instead of a check box consisting of Agree or Disagree, what if it is a write-in response?  What if the truth is the Hindu (or some other) religion or belief?  You will have wasted your time following Jesus and will be condemned to whatever punishment is called for under the actual religion of the universe.  So I ask:  Do you feel lucky, punk?

 

[Willow]

I have posted this question before, and no one seems willing to respond:

Your question assumes that there are only two choices to make regarding the “after-life”, Christian God, or no god.  What if the question is multiple choice? 

I'm willing to respond, Bob.

Either you don't understand the question or he's not asked the correct question.  The choice specified by the question is the Christian God or not the Christian God. 

If there are multiple correct choices, the Christian God cannot be one of them as indeed Jesus, the Christ, did claim exclusivity.  Hence the Christian is not empowered to hedge his bets with other possibilities nor is the infidel empowered to hedge his bets by adding Christianity to his other beliefs.

I guess I have perhaps slightly overstated if all possibilities are considered.  If there were, in fact, no god then any choice, including Christianity, will suffice equally well.

[Chrisj CMA]

Robert, we know when we found TRUTH........he hopes were wrong.

I only have one question for those that believe like SE that many roads, (that the Bible says leads to destruction) actually are alternate ways to heaven and there is no judgement; acountability.....heres my question?


"So....Punk, do you feel lucky?"
Dirty Harry/Clint Eastwood

I have posted this question before, and no one seems willing to respond:

Your question assumes that there are only two choices to make regarding the “after-life”, Christian God, or no god.  What if the question is multiple choice?  Instead of a check box consisting of Agree or Disagree, what if it is a write-in response?  What if the truth is the Hindu (or some other) religion or belief?  You will have wasted your time following Jesus and will be condemned to whatever punishment is called for under the actual religion of the universe.  So I ask:  Do you feel lucky, punk?

 

Bobbo.....its an age old question............there is no answer that can satisfy you.  All I can say is that when the Holy Spirit gets a hold of you and changes you from the inside out, there is no doubt who the LIVING God is and what the TRUTH is..............Bobbo, I guess what I am saying is you just have to believe it to see it

[Bobbo]

I'm willing to respond, Bob.

Either you don't understand the question or he's not asked the correct question.  The choice specified by the question is the Christian God or not the Christian God. 

If there are multiple correct choices, the Christian God cannot be one of them as indeed Jesus, the Christ, did claim exclusivity.  Hence the Christian is not empowered to hedge his bets with other possibilities nor is the infidel empowered to hedge his bets by adding Christianity to his other beliefs.

I guess I have perhaps slightly overstated if all possibilities are considered.  If there were, in fact, no god then any choice, including Christianity, will suffice equally well.

More directly, what does a Christian say or do as he stands before the Hindu gods during judgment?  This is the same context as asking a non-Christian what he would do if he stands before the Christian god to be judged.

[Chrisj CMA]

I'm willing to respond, Bob.

Either you don't understand the question or he's not asked the correct question.  The choice specified by the question is the Christian God or not the Christian God. 

If there are multiple correct choices, the Christian God cannot be one of them as indeed Jesus, the Christ, did claim exclusivity.  Hence the Christian is not empowered to hedge his bets with other possibilities nor is the infidel empowered to hedge his bets by adding Christianity to his other beliefs.

I guess I have perhaps slightly overstated if all possibilities are considered.  If there were, in fact, no god then any choice, including Christianity, will suffice equally well.

More directly, what does a Christian say or do as he stands before the Hindu gods during judgment?  This is the same context as asking a non-Christian what he would do if he stands before the Christian god to be judged.

The problem with that question is this....Its the Hindu gods that will bow a knee to Christ at the judgement, so will everyone else.....no exceptions

[Bobbo]

The problem with that question is this....Its the Hindu gods that will bow a knee to Christ at the judgement, so will everyone else.....no exceptions

You have simply sidestepped my question twice.  I know you must shudder at the thought of a different god being in control of the universe, so I understand your hesitance in directing answering the question.