Why the animosity toward Harley Products

[R J]

when i get ready to sell it i will get at least 2/3 of my money back..  

Good luck with that ....Do you ever look at Craigslist , E-Bay, Cycle Trader , local paper classifieds ? It takes forever to wade through all the Harley's that's for sale . We rode with a guy last weekend on the " Land Between The Lakes Ride " that was on the full dress whatever they call it FLXDHYRESDFR Screamin' Eagle he told us he wrote a check for $45,000 for the bike I pretty much called him stupid and he said " Oh I got the extended warranty with it Joe "  ???  

Extended warranty, that is a laugh.

Buddy of mine has a full fairing something or other Harley.    

He had the extended warranty also.

When Rolling Thunder was going on, he rode to DC.   Coming home he blew the engine just shortly after he passed the PA state line.    All I know it was a 2,500 mile round trip to retrieve his bike.     He borrowed my AST trailer to haul it home.

Seems as how this extended warranty is only good at the selling dealer.    DUH..   That would give me an attitude if I had a Harley and it expired on a trip, and I had to get it home to get it repaired.   Harley did replace the complete engine after he got it here.    I can't understand why another dealer can't handle a situation like that.     That no make no sense.     I've had a lot of Wings worked on on the road.   Especially my 86 SEi fuelie.     My son and I finally found the problem, fuel pump laid tooooooo close to the exhaust pipe.  It boiled the gas and caused a vapor lock.   I should have kept that bike, it was a runner and a 1/2.    Put a little over 100,000 miles on it.  Only problem was that damn vapor locking.

I have a backyard Harley repair shop next door to me.    He is out there revving motors he is working on at midnight and after.     One night, about 2:30 AM he was working on a straight pipe bike.      Walked outside, stuck a slug in the 10 ga I have, raised the nose into the air and pulled the trigger.    I mean him and a buddy came out of that garage like their ass was on fire.    He looked at me as my motion detector was lite with a got look.   Told him the next one would be aimed at his garage.    He hasn't worked on a bike past 9:00 PM since then.  I've even gone over and helped him get one to idle right for him, as his request, after this blast of the 10 ga. Best part was, none of the other neighbors called 911 when it happened.   He knew that at one time I used to work on Harley's, he knows my son.

A lot of the attitude is just a trying to fit into the crowd.   You know, like the last one picked as a team mate for a game where ya have 2 people picking teams.     Or a wall flower at a dance.   You get the idea now, right?

Rest my case.

As Forrest Gump would say:
“That's all I have to say about that.”

[bigguy]

Wild Hoggs Peter Fonda called them "POSERS"....they usually are wearing the "COSTUMES" Harley sells in their little botiques.

Actually, it was Ray Liotta playing the Fonda character's son.
Love that movie.

Ray Liotta - Posers	powered by Aeva

[art]

Some folks prefer one ride over another for God only knows what reason.  If their choice is a Harley, more power to 'em.  I find those folks have their head on straight.  But much like trendy cars, clothes, etc.... some buy based on what's hot.  Whatever, it's their money.  What I find hilarious is the weekend warriors all dressed up like Halloween pirates down at the Dairy Queen on Saturday afternoon.  It seems to be  a generational thing more then anything, at least to me.  Young Harley riders look over and nod or wave when they see me.  It's my fellow boomers who like to pretend I'm invisible.   The same riders may scoff at my Japanese bike (made in Ohio) and then go to work Monday morning in their BMW, Toyota, or Hyundai.  People like that are not to be taken seriously.

I used to live next to some members of an "outlaw" biker group in California (not the H.A.)  Those guys were the best neighbors I ever had.  They pulled in late at night and shut down.  If they left early in the morning, they started up and drove off.  No reving the whole neighborhood awake.  And they had mufflers.  They don't sheet where they eat.   And guess what?  They LOVED my little Kawasaki 440 parallel twin.  Even helped me work on it once.

Some day the Yuppie pirates may realize how stupid they're being.  Hopefully the rest of us will chuckle and welcome them back into the motorcycle community.

By the way everything is relative.  When I used to ride my trike, NONE of the 2 wheelers on any bike would acknowledge me.  Not even in a famous group that says they're above all that.  (Don't ask, I won't name them.)

I always wave at trike riders

[Sodbuster]

When someone asks me why I didn't buy a Harley I tell them "cause I can't afford the clothes" 

[Stormrider65]

When Yamaha stopped producing the Venture Royale and then went to the Royale Star, I went to look at the bike.  After test riding and telling the dealership all the accessories I wanted (which were very numerous), he gave me a price of $17,000 out the door.  I asked for a list of everything I wanted and went to the nearest Harley dealership.  I decided to give then the benefit of the doubt and give them a shot at getting my business.  I walked in, found a salesman, explained everything I wanted up front and asked for a price.  He looked at the list, then at me and told me the sky was the limit.  He then started to get a price for me and said over $30,000.  After I came to after fainting, I asked another favor of him.  I asked him to sell me a Harley, but without using the Harley mystique, a chick magnet, or resale value.  He looked at me and said I took all his selling points away.  Needless to say, I did not buy a Harley.  Go figure.  I've rode a couple and I was not impressed at all.  I guess everyone wants to be with the "in" crowd and ride what everyone else rides.  Some people don't like being different or unusual or go against the "popular" way of thinking.

Walt

[Chiefy]

When someone asks me why I didn't buy a Harley I tell them "cause I can't afford the clothes" 

      

[Jess from VA]

When someone asks me why I didn't buy a Harley I tell them "cause I can't afford the clothes" 

      

I have used these (true) words many times.

When someone asks me why I didn't buy a Harley I tell them  "Hey I rode a Hog for 18 years and it was a great bike..... then I moved up."   

[Moonshot_1]

Well, it seems generally that you can get more bike for less money by getting something other than a Harley.

Not saying that Harleys are bad bikes, they're not, but as said previously, they are overpriced.
I'm sure there are some exceptions to the rule. And it seems when you look at used bikes the price issue is just silly. Some may argue that the Harleys keep their value. I suppose that is true, but you can get way more bike for the money than a Harley.

As far as the "Harley" attitude, I think some of these guys are on another planet in a different galaxy and in that galaxy is another planet with Gold Wingers. All Gold Wing - All the Time. Can't stand either one. All kind of revolving around themselves.

We will go on supper rides and the group is about 85% Harleys.
All in their Harley gear. It is like a costume.  Bunch of good folks. Most are just casual weekend riders.
A couple of them shouldn't be on a bike in a group at all. But none are from Planet Harley though they may visit occasionally.

But we all know what a motorcycle can be. This marvel of engineering called a Valkyrie.

Stick a 12 year old Valk in a line of new Harleys and the Valk is the show stopper.
I've sat and watched that happen on a number of occasions.

[Sodbuster]

After reading thru all the replies to this post I got's to thinking about the root cause to the animosity. Several people have used the term "attitude" when really it boils down to the word "insecure".

When someone feels the need to own a [enter: bike, car, etc.] and are "insecure" about themselves chances are they're going to join the masses and buy what everyone else has.

I found this article and it mentions people who are insecure also lack a sense of control.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26996326/ns/health-behavior/t/feeling-insecure-can-lead-mind-games/#.Tsc-wlbnuuI

So, it seems that people who seek to own an HD product are insecure and that drinking the "orange cool-aid" will make them feel in control ??

I don't have anything against HD personally or any other marque for that matter .... I just like my Valk better than anything else out there.

[alph]

i've never, ever, been a "group" guy.  if everyone was saying, "lets do this" i'd be doing something else.  main reason why i will not buy anything with the HD logo on it, i'm not a "yesman" guy.  i don't follow the crowd.  that's the way i see harley guys, ever notice they all wear black leather, always!!  now i wear a black leather jacket, but i also have a brown flight jacket, and a blue denim jacket, i've worn 'em all on my cycle, don't care about image at all (just ask my wife!).  no tatoo's, no piercings, no cigerettes, don't get into the "poker-run" thing (did once, that was enough).  never rev the engine at a light (unless it's idleing bad).  just don't want to "look" like a harley guy. 

when a co-worker asked me why i didn't buy a harley, i told him "i work maintenance, why would i want to do work at home?"  he couldn't understand it.  then i told him my honda's got 70,000 miles, he couldn't understand how i put so many miles on the bike, cause his 8 year old harley didn't even have 10,000 on it (i didn't tell him i bought it used). 

i've gotten to the point were i don't even give harley guys the time of day.  sick of thier attitude, period.  i've been riding for 15 years, and in those years i've never wanted a harley, matter of fact, i've never wanted a v-twin. 

[solo1]

I'm probably one of the few here that can say that I owned a Vtwin Harley in 1947.  I use that for an answer when or if Harley riders ask me to buy a "real" bike.  I tell them that I had one but will never buy another since I don't need old technology today.

As far as the theory, insecure vs attitude problem, I'm no psychiatrist and I don't much care. I ride solo most of the time, wear a yellow full face helmet with a yellow jacket. I do admit to wearing BLACK jeans tho. I ride a bike that gives me pleasure, right now it's a Vstrom, it was a VAlk (the Valk was the best that I ever owned). I don't bar hop, I don't give a rats ass about the whole boutique thing or  being "in" or any of that nonsense.  However, I do appreciate the 'just right' friendly group here in the VRCC.

I did belong to the GWRRA once. I owned two GW's.  That organization is like the Harley 'mystique'  Everything is regimented and is sorta like working for 'merit' badges in the Boy Scouts, IMHO.    Not for me.  Just sign me

Solo1

[HayHauler]

RJ, does he STILL have your trailer!?

Man,

Hay
Jimmyt

[fudgie]

i've never, ever, been a "group" guy.  if everyone was saying, "lets do this" i'd be doing something else.  main reason why i will not buy anything with the HD logo on it, i'm not a "yesman" guy.  i don't follow the crowd.  that's the way i see harley guys, ever notice they all wear black leather, always!!  now i wear a black leather jacket, but i also have a brown flight jacket, and a blue denim jacket, i've worn 'em all on my cycle, don't care about image at all (just ask my wife!).  no tatoo's, no piercings, no cigerettes, don't get into the "poker-run" thing (did once, that was enough).  never rev the engine at a light (unless it's idleing bad).  just don't want to "look" like a harley guy. 

Hey I wear black leather, tattooed, pierced, and do poker runs. I'm a Valk rider.   ???

[R J]

RJ, does he STILL have your trailer!?

Man,

Hay
Jimmyt

Jimmy, he brought it home to me a couple of weekends ago, all washed and waxed up, and he had replaced 1 wheel bearing and packed the other one.    One of my mud flaps had broke off in the middle, looked like hell, but I didn't want to mess with it then.     He bought a new pair almost like the old ones and replaced both flaps.

Told him if he was going to treat it like that I'd let him store it at his farm for the winter.    He started to hook it back onto his pickup.     Told him, naw, I have a cover for it and it will be fine right here.

Also told him if he needed it again, to come get it.    He said I'll take ya up on that.    I just hope his Harley holds together now.

[wekieboom]

I have always appreciated the 'tude I get from Harley enthusiasts... especially noteable are the ones that don't even own a motorcycle, let alone a Harley.  The best/worst was this guy who had one of those Ford F250s with the Harley branding all over it... so great, he walked up to my valk (parked on Northgate by all the bars in College Station,TX at the time) and said "man that is a sweet looking Harley"  I could tell he is inebriated, so I didn't correct him and said thanks.  He continued to ask me about the odd looking engine and eventually he realized that the engine that Honda used to put in some of their cars would not be the same engine that Harley would ever use .  Any who, he completley changed his outlook and my bike that was cool 5 minutes before was now a piece o' s#!t.... so funny.  I later saw him climbing into his f250 diesel HD edition...  honestly a nice truck but wouldn't ever own one w/o owning a HD bike...

[wiseguy]

I find that if I compliment the Harley owner on his bike, The attitude seems to fade, and they then compliment me on my Valk. It works every time.

[Willow]

... and eventually he realized that the engine that Honda used to put in some of their cars would not be the same engine that Harley would ever use

Wait.  Someone help me out with that.   ??? 

[wekieboom]

Another funny Harley story:

First off my dad was the original owner of my Valk.  When he first got it he went riding with a big HD guy that lives down the street.  Being the manly men they are, they had to attempt and show up each other.  Well of course, the Valk did most of the "showing up".  The man down the street later spent a 1000's getting his engine blue printed, bored out, and who knows what else... all to prove that HD is better than Honda.  

What do you think he'll do if I get a SuperCharger??

[wekieboom]

... and eventually he realized that the engine that Honda used to put in some of their cars would not be the same engine that Harley would ever use

Wait.  Someone help me out with that.   ??? 

oops sorry, I guess I typed slower than my own thoughts... he said it looks like a car engine especially with a radiator... I told him it is even as big as some of the engines that used to be used in Civics and Accords (liter-wise)... SORRY to anyone else that may have been confused by my interrupted post!

[PaulO]

Owned 2 harleys years ago.  Both from the dark amf days and both total pieces of poop that should never have been on the road.  Last year I borrowed a friends brand new road king and rode it to daytona.  It was actually a really nice bike.  I have learned that I am not a V twin guy.  I have ridden the new Victorys as well as several V Twin japanese bikes and I just dont like them.  My new/old valk is the best bike I have ever had and I have had many.  New Harleys aren't bad but they are expensive.  However, my real source of humor is the tough guy thing that comes with the harley and the costume.  I am not that young anymore but I train extensively in MMA with young tough dudes.  I chuckle when I see people who believe that a goatee, a shaved head and tatoos make you look tough.  The toughest people I know don't look it.  The costume and mean mugging is hysterical!!!!

[Jess from VA]

The toughest people I know don't look it.    

Yep, watch out for old guys, they don't have the energy or inclination to fight and tumble..... they'll be polite for a while, then they'll just kill you.

[hotglue #43]

I'm trying to figure out what everyone has to prove... one bike over the next.....
I like 'em all for different reasons..... wish I could have kept every bike I have had.....
Hondas, Triumphs, Nortons, Kawasaki ring,dings....Moto Guzzi, Bsa , Harleys, ....Each and every one...Sweet rides in their own rights... Each had their strong and weak points......I've never had a BMW..... maybe I can talk bad about them,,,...LOL...  Naw..    The GS intrigues me...

As I have said before... Variety IS the spice of life....

Oh... I have a goatee..... because it covers my double chin and waddle.... Heck... I'm Old!!!!

[Valkahuna]

I'm trying to figure out what everyone has to prove... one bike over the next.....
I like 'em all for different reasons..... wish I could have kept every bike I have had.....
Hondas, Triumphs, Nortons, Kawasaki ring,dings....Moto Guzzi, Bsa , Harleys, ....Each and every one...Sweet rides in their own rights... Each had their strong and weak points......I've never had a BMW..... maybe I can talk bad about them,,,...LOL...  Naw..    The GS intrigues me...

As I have said before... Variety IS the spice of life....

Oh... I have a goatee..... because it covers my double chin and waddle.... Heck... I'm Old!!!!

Hey Hot Glue,

Don't you be bad mouthing my BMW now! I'm just getting over my inferiority complex of owning (and loving) my H-D. Heck, I even wear black leather chaps when it's cold, and a black leather jacket, ugh yea, and black gloves, and a black helmet.

But hey, I wear that on my Valk as well.

Oh hey, and one other thing, I have a goatee and waddle also! Damn, we got a lot in common!

[hotglue #43]

LOL !!!!!

[Cruzen]

It has been interesting to read all the comments.  Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts and feelings. 

My original post posed the question about an attitude adjustment that comes about when someone moves from a metric to a Harley.  I also pondered the reason so many enthusiasts embrace an obsolete engine design.  This has perplexed me, as it has Honda of Japan, especially since Harley in conjunction with Porsche has built the water cooled Revolution engine which is far superior to the air cooled Evolution and 88 engines.  Why not just drop the air cooled engines and put the Revolution engine in everything?

My personal feeling is that while it is much smoother and more powerful, the Revolution engine does not produce the sensory stimulation that the Harley advocates want and they are willing to give up performance and reliability in favor of an inferior design that provides that feedback.  Possession of such a tactile machine provides the rider with the substance that is missing from the rest of their lives.  (Similar to revving and rocking Oldsmobile that someone mentioned.) It allows the average lawyer, doctor, professional whatever, entry into a community of similarly stimulated individuals that would otherwise be closed to them.  In this community they no longer have to be prim and proper as the rest of their lives dictate.  The brand labeled black leather garments, loud pipes and thumping noise provide the rider with the look at me attitude and challenge to social conventions similar to kids dying their hair pink or running pieces of metal through parts of their body and dating people their parents do not approve of.  It’s what we used to call shock value.  Without that they are just another drop of water in a big pond.

Personally I find it amusing that people will pay more for a garment because it has a manufactures name on it.  I have shirts with my company’s logo and a few from places I have visited but that is about it.  I purposely wear all brown leather, jacket, vest, boots, belt and  gloves which is close to the color of the original colored jackets worn by very early motorcyclists and have no manufacture logo’s on anything.  My stuff is functional but probably not trendy.  Blue Wrangler jeans in the summer and black Wranglers jeans which have a tighter weave and are a bit warmer in the winter.  Off the bike nobody can determine from my look what brand I ride nor what group I am associated with and the brown leather tends to put off less people than the black leather.  In fact one elderly gentleman told me it reminded him of his grand fathers 1920 era English pilots jacket.

I have nothing against Harley’s.  I recognize the bike (except for the V-Rod series) to be of inferior mechanical design and few disagree with that.   It is some of the riders and their “look at me attitudes” and lack of respect for social norms such as noise ordinances that cause me a problem and has caused several towns in my vicinity to enforce noise ordinances. ( My personal preference when someone is waking me with a lot of noise is to lay in wait and fire two warning shots into their chest then go back to sleep but that is also socially unacceptable for some reason.)

While I have made nice money off of Harley stock in the past, thanks to all those Harley sales, I am pleased to see the sales of new Harley's off by nearly 30% and in some areas much more than that.  As someone noted we are now seeing many of those 2004-2010 era bikes coming up for sale with low mileage and an abundance of accessories and bling with reasonable pricing.  This can benefit the true motorcycle enthusiast.  Maybe like the Urban Cowboy craze this has also run it’s course and we can get back to common sense motorcycling.

[buzz]

Harley Davidson owners are preoccupied with image and sound, so much so that they've forgotten the basic principle that backs up those two aspects; performance. Image and sound are nothing, they are meaningless, without performance, but you can't convince people of that today.  Performance.  You can't have image and sound without performance to back it up. You just can't. If you try, you've got a facade, a hollow shell and you're just a wannabe hiding within it.

As Americans, we live in the greatest country, the greatest country in the entire world. We, as Americans, are driven to be the first in everything. It's our nature. We're not slackers. We take second best to no one. It's a national point of pride. No one can beat our military, our pride, our technology, our determinedness, or our ingenuity.  There is nothing in the world, no problem, no tragedy, no foe too great that America cannot triumph over them.

So, then, I'm afraid to inform you that, in one very important regard, we ARE willing to settle for second best or even worse, last place. America has become complacent in the world, we are content to sit on our fat butts and watch others whiz past at breakneck speed and yet we do nothing. We're getting left behind because we can't keep up.  Why?  Because we are stuck in a misunderstood and ill-conceived mental rut. I'm talking about motorcycles, American made and built motorcycles; Harley Davidson to be exact. You see them everywhere, and you know the kind of rider that is usually aboard one. Leather chaps, leather jacket, combat boots, the very epitome of a bad ass biker.

But, that's just a wishful image.  All that stuff came out of a corporate catalog...  One Harley rider looks like another, pretty much, yet they all claim that they are 'individuals'.  Seeing a group of Harleys go past is like watching a cut scene from the movie "The Stepford Wives".   They're all identical, they look alike, and they all ride the same thing; junk.

[The Anvil]

Harley Davidson owners are preoccupied with image and sound, so much so that they've forgotten the basic principle that backs up those two aspects; performance. Image and sound are nothing, they are meaningless, without performance, but you can't convince people of that today.  Performance.  You can't have image and sound without performance to back it up. You just can't. If you try, you've got a facade, a hollow shell and you're just a wannabe hiding within it.

As Americans, we live in the greatest country, the greatest country in the entire world. We, as Americans, are driven to be the first in everything. It's our nature. We're not slackers. We take second best to no one. It's a national point of pride. No one can beat our military, our pride, our technology, our determinedness, or our ingenuity.  There is nothing in the world, no problem, no tragedy, no foe too great that America cannot triumph over them.

So, then, I'm afraid to inform you that, in one very important regard, we ARE willing to settle for second best or even worse, last place. America has become complacent in the world, we are content to sit on our fat butts and watch others whiz past at breakneck speed and yet we do nothing. We're getting left behind because we can't keep up.  Why?  Because we are stuck in a misunderstood and ill-conceived mental rut. I'm talking about motorcycles, American made and built motorcycles; Harley Davidson to be exact. You see them everywhere, and you know the kind of rider that is usually aboard one. Leather chaps, leather jacket, combat boots, the very epitome of a bad ass biker.

But, that's just a wishful image.  All that stuff came out of a corporate catalog...  One Harley rider looks like another, pretty much, yet they all claim that they are 'individuals'.  Seeing a group of Harleys go past is like watching a cut scene from the movie "The Stepford Wives".   They're all identical, they look alike, and they all ride the same thing; junk.

Way to generalize. You used an awful lot of words to say nothing of value.

[DarkMeister]

To this day the sound of a Harley appeals to me. Not sure what it is.
However, what really made me step back from the idea of getting into one, was some info on the V-Twin HD uses.
We have a member here, Bigguy, who keeps a blog - very, very good reading. (Hope you're getting better, Bigguy!). Anyway, one of his September blogs really made me think. The blog is here:

http://www.texarkanagazette.com/Bikers-Blog/

Heck, every blog is apropos to many (bike-related) discussions we are having on here.

[buzz]

Not trying to generalize or put down Harley riders.  Any two-wheeled device is good in my book and i don't care if it's a Vespa.  Been riding for 41 years now and  I was trying add to the initial post made by  Cruzen.  I was mostly talking about the motorcycles that Milwaukee produces.  Product that hasn't changed in 50 years.  I was trying to point out that if not most of, then a lot of those who ride Harleys are chasing the image. 

Image is a powerful thing.  We, as Americans, want to project a strong image to the rest of the world, but in doing so, we have become lazy (again, talking about motorcycles). We are now willing to pay large amounts of money to buy an image, rather than go out and earn one for ourselves. It is easier to walk into a motorcycle dealer, buy a new Harley Davidson, and then tell ourselves, "I own a Harley, therefore I am a bad ass because a Harley is a bad ass bike".  It doesn't matter if your bike is made up of parts from six or ten other Harleys; you are one tough bad guy. All because you own a certain type of motorcycle?

Harley Davidson is about one of the smartest motorcycle manufacturers in the world. It is the unwitting public who buys what Milwaukee is selling and Milwaukee is selling only one thing; image.  Image with no substance, image at a price.  Anyone can ride a Harley; it just takes lots of money.   How else can you explain paying so much and receiving so little in return?

Sure, Harleys can be made to perform, but you have to rebuild them from the ground up and by the time that you get any decent performance out of a Harley, you could have bought two or three Japanese bikes for cash. Harley's fastest motorcycle, the Sportster, isn't anywhere near deserving of its name. There is no "sport" to the Sportster, and with an 883cc engine pushing out a meager forty seven horsepower, you have all the makings for a Black Angus set in motion by a mouse fart.

[The Anvil]

Not trying to generalize or put down Harley riders.  Any two-wheeled device is good in my book and i don't care if it's a Vespa.  Been riding for 41 years now and  I was trying add to the initial post made by  Cruzen.  I was mostly talking about the motorcycles that Milwaukee produces.  Product that hasn't changed in 50 years.  I was trying to point out that if not most of, then a lot of those who ride Harleys are chasing the image. 

Image is a powerful thing.  We, as Americans, want to project a strong image to the rest of the world, but in doing so, we have become lazy (again, talking about motorcycles). We are now willing to pay large amounts of money to buy an image, rather than go out and earn one for ourselves. It is easier to walk into a motorcycle dealer, buy a new Harley Davidson, and then tell ourselves, "I own a Harley, therefore I am a bad ass because a Harley is a bad ass bike".  It doesn't matter if your bike is made up of parts from six or ten other Harleys; you are one tough bad guy. All because you own a certain type of motorcycle?

Harley Davidson is about one of the smartest motorcycle manufacturers in the world. It is the unwitting public who buys what Milwaukee is selling and Milwaukee is selling only one thing; image.  Image with no substance, image at a price.  Anyone can ride a Harley; it just takes lots of money.   How else can you explain paying so much and receiving so little in return?

Sure, Harleys can be made to perform, but you have to rebuild them from the ground up and by the time that you get any decent performance out of a Harley, you could have bought two or three Japanese bikes for cash. Harley's fastest motorcycle, the Sportster, isn't anywhere near deserving of its name. There is no "sport" to the Sportster, and with an 883cc engine pushing out a meager forty seven horsepower, you have all the makings for a Black Angus set in motion by a mouse fart.

All of your points were valid criticisms of a certain group but that's not representative of all H-D riders. Much like a lot of other things in life I think you'll find that the ones that are the worst offenders also happen to be the loudest and most visible. But there are a few H-D owners and former H-D owners (like myself) who appreciate the product and don't fit in with that RUB crowd. You really can accuse a lot of Honda riders of the same transgressions, but it shouldn't reflect on all of us, should it?

[buzz]

Funny thing is that until 2-3 years ago I used to ride with a group made only of foreign made motorcycles (several Japanese bikes, MBWs and even one Moto Guzzi).  Now I'm riding primarily with HD riders. Did not mean to criticize but to make an observation that we (USA) do not produce a single high performance motorcycle that can compete with the rest of the manufacturers.  Not one.

Let's leave the image seekers and biker-wannabees for another time, another discussion.  I believe in a true, high performance motorcycle that is American designed, built, and ridden. I believe in something that Harley is missing out on.  I believe in our dominance over every other type and brand of motorcycle in the world. That is what America is all about, showing the rest of the world how it's done and then letting them play catch up. That's dominance gained by performance, power, and design. Not image, loudness, and the flash of chrome off of oiled leather.  Dominance gained through legitimate means instead of smoke and mirrors, dominance gained through sheer power, skill and determination. Dominance gained through technological advantage and design.

Harley Davidson seems to have forgotten what motorcycling is all about. There was a time when Harley Davidson was a good bike. They built the best and the fastest motorcycles in the world, but they became stagnant. The rest of the world started building better mousetraps than Milwaukee could.  Milwaukee refused to change with the times.  The rest of the world left Milwaukee behind, it happened sometime in the late '60s when Harley Davidson started losing races to British and Japanese motorcycles. What did Harley do? Did they jump into research and catch up to the foreign invaders? When the chips were down, did they muster all that they had, pick up the pieces, and come from behind to capture the winner's cup in grand American tradition. No. Harley did what no American would ever consider doing... They quit.

Harley gave up. They quit racing. When their bubble has burst, and new and faster motorcycles were entering the market, Harley simply walked away and never went racing again. Harley left the real world and gave the go ahead to European and Japanese manufacturers that America was out of the performance circle and that we were out of the game. Soon what the British and Japanese engineers were learning at the race tracks, they were applying to their brands of motorcycles, making them faster, better handlers, lighter, more durable, more reliable.  Their technology was advancing by the year, with each victory, with each innovation, each design breakthrough.

Harley walked back to its little corner of the world (Milwaukee, USA), with its tail between its legs and sulked.  As the world passed Harley Davidson by, Harley just kept on beating out the same old tired, uninventive, unimaginative designs year after year like their pappy had done before them, and their grand pappy had done before that.  I really get tired of people coming up to me and saying "You need to get a real bike. You need to ride a Harley, not some damn rice burner!"

Most of the people who tell me that don't even own a motorcycle, let alone a Harley! They're just good old boys or girls who have this ignorant notion that no motorcycle in the world is better than a Harley and since I am an American, I should be ashamed to ride anything that isn't American.  I have never seen a Honda, Suzuki or a Triumph owner come up to a Harley rider and tell him to get a real motorcycle. I blame Harley Davidson, not the riders, for banging out the same old tired designs and who are content to sell more merchandise than actual bikes for that kind of embarrassment.  

If Japan, Italy, and Germany did product development the same way that Harley Davidson does, there wouldn't be Honda, Ducati, or BMW bikes. There wouldn't be VCRs, mini-TVs, or Sony Walkmans. We'd all still be listening to wind up phonographs and watching black and white TV through vacuum tubes. Milwaukee churns out the same tired old designs every year, a piece of this model, a piece of that model, change the tank, paint it black, add forty pounds of chrome and three grand to the price and give it a name like American Historical Limited Edition Super Extra Easy Wide Glide FGXLHR or something equally incoherent and viola!  You have a brand new Harley for this model year.
      

[Jess Tolbirt]

Buzz,
you really need to come out of your cacoon,,,
if harley is the same old technology, how come nothing before 2010 models fit my bike?
and harley hasnt quit racing either,,
you say, Harley Davidson seems to have forgotten what motorcycling is all about.
yea thats why they sell so many of them..
o crap this aint worth my time..
you sound to me like one of them arrogant honda riders..

[Valkahuna]

Funny thing is that until 2-3 years ago I used to ride with a group made only of foreign made motorcycles (several Japanese bikes, MBWs and even one Moto Guzzi).  Now I'm riding primarily with HD riders. Did not mean to criticize but to make an observation that we (USA) do not produce a single high performance motorcycle that can compete with the rest of the manufacturers.  Not one.

Let's leave the image seekers and biker-wannabees for another time, another discussion.  I believe in a true, high performance motorcycle that is American designed, built, and ridden. I believe in something that Harley is missing out on.  I believe in our dominance over every other type and brand of motorcycle in the world. That is what America is all about, showing the rest of the world how it's done and then letting them play catch up. That's dominance gained by performance, power, and design. Not image, loudness, and the flash of chrome off of oiled leather.  Dominance gained through legitimate means instead of smoke and mirrors, dominance gained through sheer power, skill and determination. Dominance gained through technological advantage and design.

Harley Davidson seems to have forgotten what motorcycling is all about. There was a time when Harley Davidson was a good bike. They built the best and the fastest motorcycles in the world, but they became stagnant. The rest of the world started building better mousetraps than Milwaukee could.  Milwaukee refused to change with the times.  The rest of the world left Milwaukee behind, it happened sometime in the late '60s when Harley Davidson started losing races to British and Japanese motorcycles. What did Harley do? Did they jump into research and catch up to the foreign invaders? When the chips were down, did they muster all that they had, pick up the pieces, and come from behind to capture the winner's cup in grand American tradition. No. Harley did what no American would ever consider doing... They quit.

Harley gave up. They quit racing. When their bubble has burst, and new and faster motorcycles were entering the market, Harley simply walked away and never went racing again. Harley left the real world and gave the go ahead to European and Japanese manufacturers that America was out of the performance circle and that we were out of the game. Soon what the British and Japanese engineers were learning at the race tracks, they were applying to their brands of motorcycles, making them faster, better handlers, lighter, more durable, more reliable.  Their technology was advancing by the year, with each victory, with each innovation, each design breakthrough.

Harley walked back to its little corner of the world (Milwaukee, USA), with its tail between its legs and sulked.  As the world passed Harley Davidson by, Harley just kept on beating out the same old tired, uninventive, unimaginative designs year after year like their pappy had done before them, and their grand pappy had done before that.  I really get tired of people coming up to me and saying "You need to get a real bike. You need to ride a Harley, not some damn rice burner!"

Most of the people who tell me that don't even own a motorcycle, let alone a Harley! They're just good old boys or girls who have this ignorant notion that no motorcycle in the world is better than a Harley and since I am an American, I should be ashamed to ride anything that isn't American.  I have never seen a Honda, Suzuki or a Triumph owner come up to a Harley rider and tell him to get a real motorcycle. I blame Harley Davidson, not the riders, for banging out the same old tired designs and who are content to sell more merchandise than actual bikes for that kind of embarrassment.  

If Japan, Italy, and Germany did product development the same way that Harley Davidson does, there wouldn't be Honda, Ducati, or BMW bikes. There wouldn't be VCRs, mini-TVs, or Sony Walkmans. We'd all still be listening to wind up phonographs and watching black and white TV through vacuum tubes. Milwaukee churns out the same tired old designs every year, a piece of this model, a piece of that model, change the tank, paint it black, add forty pounds of chrome and three grand to the price and give it a name like American Historical Limited Edition Super Extra Easy Wide Glide FGXLHR or something equally incoherent and viola!  You have a brand new Harley for this model year.
      

I am glad to see that you are a real student of history.  Wow! Thanks for sharing your version of American Motorcycle History.

[Dogg]

There are Harley owners and then, there are Harley riders. All my friends but a very few ride Harleys. THEY are riders. Owners are the ones with the 06 fatboy with 2300 miles on it. Owners=posers.

I have to tell you a quick story. Blipping the throttle is fun. I love doing it on fatass in a crowd, really turns a lot of heads. But, the most memorable valk related thing I can remember happened this bike week just passed. A bunch of us went to winter place park to visit the vendors and look for stuff none of us really needed. We parked in the grass field across the driveway from the park about 200 yards away from the gate. As we approached our valks, a bunch of Harleys started revving their engines. People just looked at them like they were stupid. Big D was parked next to me and we both sport the 5 inch MarkT exhaust (tho, mine is louder). We climbed on our bikes and I blipped then Darrel blipped then next thing you know, both of us were revving, bouncing off the rev limiter like it was nothing, spitting fire out of the exhaust. About 25 or so riders(mostly Harleys) just sat there waiting until we were done, and they were smiling... I don't think I heard one person call us idiots or assholes for our blatant disregard of our fellow riders. We did get a few cat calls tho, so it must have been ok by them...

[Canuck]

I'd rather scrape a peg than blip a throttle.   



Riding is all about ME, the bike, the road and not what anyone else thinks. 

[fudgie]

To this day the sound of a Harley appeals to me. Not sure what it is.

I agree. Nothing better then the sound of thunder early morning in the Hills.

[buzz]

Jess,

If Harley hasn’t quit racing then name one international race that Harley won or participated in the last 40-50 years.  We have several really fast motorcycle racers to be proud of? Kevin Schwartz immediately stands out. Did he make his name riding domestic speed horses? No. We couldn't offer him a bike to ride on that would be competitive with European and Japanese models. That's a shame, a home grown racer having to sign up with European and Japanese corporations for a chance to gain glory. 

God bless Eric Buell, for daring to quit Harley Davidson and attempt to design a true sports bike. He saw what America needed to be competitive again and he didn't find it in Milwaukee. He had the right idea, HD is stagnant. Their latest designs still look like they were created at the end of WW II. No innovation.

In 40+ years of riding, I have owned numerous bikes (including a Harley).  As I said in my previous post, most of the riders in my group are Harley riders.  Some of them are owners and some are actually riders.  I’m a total opposite from being arrogant.  Most of them have a lot more money than I do and therefore are able to buy 35K, 38K and 40K Harleys.  Talking about being arrogant.  I’ve known some of them for 20-30 years.  They are my friends and I quietly listen to them brag about and show off their toys. It is they who blatantly display hatred of all motorcycles foreign or Japanese. 

From my personal observation, I feel that a lot of my fellow riders bought into an image.  An image fabricated by countless TV shows and Hollywood movies depicting a life on the back of a bike that you simply weren't cut out for.  They WISH they could be like Lorenzo Llamas in that TV series, RENEGADE.  They wish they were riding a customized Harley and being a bad ass.  But they aren't.  They WISH they could be like Peter Fonda as "Captain America" and Dennis Hopper as "Billy" in EASY RIDER, cruising America doing whatever you want, being bad and breaking the law. But they can't.

I have come out of my cocoon (by the way its cocoon, not a cacoon) long time ago.  Just waiting to buy a decent American made motorcycle.  Like fudgie said in his post “Nothing better than the sound of thunder early morning in the Hills”.  You should be scared of thunder. The only thing I'm scared of when a Harley is near is that either a piece is going to fall off and cause me to wreck, or I'll slide in a patch of oil that the Harley leaked onto the road ahead of me.  Thunder is powerful and loud.  Harleys are just loud. 

“yea thats why they sell so many of them” you say.  Harley Davidson sells a lot more merchandise and officially licensed products (T-shirts, boots, jackets etc...) then their motorcycles.  But that really doesn’t have much to do with the actual motorcycle experience itself.

[bigguy]

Style, technology, innovation, blah, blah, blah. Like any company, Harley is most concerned with profit. It seems to me, the following link pretty well sums it up and ends any real argument about Harley's philosophy:
Harley now expects to ship between 228,000 and 235,000 new bikes worldwide this year, representing an increase of 8 percent to 12 percent over 2010
Not saying I agree with or even respect it, but those results are hard to argue with.

[Cruzen]

Style, technology, innovation, blah, blah, blah. Like any company, Harley is most concerned with profit. It seems to me, the following link pretty well sums it up and ends any real argument about Harley's philosophy:
Harley now expects to ship between 228,000 and 235,000 new bikes worldwide this year, representing an increase of 8 percent to 12 percent over 2010
Not saying I agree with or even respect it, but those results are hard to argue with.

That is only because they have increased their shipments to foreign countries by almost 40% due to the opening of their new factory in India which is the same country that makes the Royal Enfield.  Harley's domestic sales are way off.  The Wild Hog craze has now moved on to other countries.

[bigguy]

Style, technology, innovation, blah, blah, blah. Like any company, Harley is most concerned with profit. It seems to me, the following link pretty well sums it up and ends any real argument about Harley's philosophy:
Harley now expects to ship between 228,000 and 235,000 new bikes worldwide this year, representing an increase of 8 percent to 12 percent over 2010
Not saying I agree with or even respect it, but those results are hard to argue with.

That is only because they have increased their shipments to foreign countries by almost 40% due to the opening of their new factory in India which is the same country that makes the Royal Enfield.  Harley's domestic sales are way off.  The Wild Hog craze has now moved on to other countries.

According to the Manufacturing.net article, those are domestic sales.
http://www.manufacturing.net/news/2011/07/more-americans-are-buying-harleys?et_cid=1839090&et_rid=54699530&linkid=http%253a%252f%252fmanufacturing.net%252fNews%252f2011%252f07%252fFinancial-News-More-Americans-Are-Buying-Harleys%252f