Why the animosity toward Harley Products

[Cruzen]

Style, technology, innovation, blah, blah, blah. Like any company, Harley is most concerned with profit. It seems to me, the following link pretty well sums it up and ends any real argument about Harley's philosophy:
Harley now expects to ship between 228,000 and 235,000 new bikes worldwide this year, representing an increase of 8 percent to 12 percent over 2010
Not saying I agree with or even respect it, but those results are hard to argue with.

That is only because they have increased their shipments to foreign countries by almost 40% due to the opening of their new factory in India which is the same country that makes the Royal Enfield.  Harley's domestic sales are way off.  The Wild Hog craze has now moved on to other countries.

According to the Manufacturing.net article, those are domestic sales.
http://www.manufacturing.net/news/2011/07/more-americans-are-buying-harleys?et_cid=1839090&et_rid=54699530&linkid=http%253a%252f%252fmanufacturing.net%252fNews%252f2011%252f07%252fFinancial-News-More-Americans-Are-Buying-Harleys%252f

I tend to go by these figures which come off Harley's stock reports .
http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Harley-Davidson_(HOG)
International sales increased by 11.3% and European sales by 22.7%

[bigguy]

Style, technology, innovation, blah, blah, blah. Like any company, Harley is most concerned with profit. It seems to me, the following link pretty well sums it up and ends any real argument about Harley's philosophy:
Harley now expects to ship between 228,000 and 235,000 new bikes worldwide this year, representing an increase of 8 percent to 12 percent over 2010
Not saying I agree with or even respect it, but those results are hard to argue with.

That is only because they have increased their shipments to foreign countries by almost 40% due to the opening of their new factory in India which is the same country that makes the Royal Enfield.  Harley's domestic sales are way off.  The Wild Hog craze has now moved on to other countries.

According to the Manufacturing.net article, those are domestic sales.
http://www.manufacturing.net/news/2011/07/more-americans-are-buying-harleys?et_cid=1839090&et_rid=54699530&linkid=http%253a%252f%252fmanufacturing.net%252fNews%252f2011%252f07%252fFinancial-News-More-Americans-Are-Buying-Harleys%252f

I tend to go by these figures which come off Harley's stock reports .
http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Harley-Davidson_(HOG)
International sales increased by 11.3% and European sales by 22.7%

OK, so they're kicking butt domestically and doing even better internationally. Makes it even harder to argue with their philosophy.

[Cruzen]

Style, technology, innovation, blah, blah, blah. Like any company, Harley is most concerned with profit. It seems to me, the following link pretty well sums it up and ends any real argument about Harley's philosophy:
Harley now expects to ship between 228,000 and 235,000 new bikes worldwide this year, representing an increase of 8 percent to 12 percent over 2010
Not saying I agree with or even respect it, but those results are hard to argue with.

That is only because they have increased their shipments to foreign countries by almost 40% due to the opening of their new factory in India which is the same country that makes the Royal Enfield.  Harley's domestic sales are way off.  The Wild Hog craze has now moved on to other countries.

According to the Manufacturing.net article, those are domestic sales.
http://www.manufacturing.net/news/2011/07/more-americans-are-buying-harleys?et_cid=1839090&et_rid=54699530&linkid=http%253a%252f%252fmanufacturing.net%252fNews%252f2011%252f07%252fFinancial-News-More-Americans-Are-Buying-Harleys%252f

I tend to go by these figures which come off Harley's stock reports .
http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Harley-Davidson_(HOG)
International sales increased by 11.3% and European sales by 22.7%

OK, so they're kicking butt domestically and doing even better internationally. Makes it even harder to argue with their philosophy.

You cannot consider that an improvement when it does not come close to what they were doing in 2007-08.  They keep comparing sales to 2010 which was one of there worst years.  Yes they will show an increase of some sort but it's still less than the 337,774 units shipped in 2007.
http://knol.google.com/k/harley-davidson-motorcycle-sales-shipments-and-revenues#

[bigguy]

You cannot consider that an improvement when it does not come close to what they were doing in 2007-08.  They keep comparing sales to 2010 which was one of there worst years.  Yes they will show an increase of some sort but it's still less than the 337,774 units shipped in 2007.
http://knol.google.com/k/harley-davidson-motorcycle-sales-shipments-and-revenues#

Good point. One I hadn't considered.
Still, I'd imagine most companies had bad years in 2009 and 2010 because of the crashing global economy. Frankly, I'm just not interested enough ( or too lazy  ) to do the research and see how they compare to the rest of the market in those years.

[fudgie]

You never hear songs about Hondas. 

How about a good ol Harley Song.

http://www.myspace.com/hankrotten/music/songs/harley-in-the-rain-19261523

[Serk]

You never hear songs about Hondas. 

Hondels - Little Honda	powered by Aeva

[Cruzen]

You cannot consider that an improvement when it does not come close to what they were doing in 2007-08.  They keep comparing sales to 2010 which was one of there worst years.  Yes they will show an increase of some sort but it's still less than the 337,774 units shipped in 2007.
http://knol.google.com/k/harley-davidson-motorcycle-sales-shipments-and-revenues#

Good point. One I hadn't considered.
Still, I'd imagine most companies had bad years in 2009 and 2010 because of the crashing global economy. Frankly, I'm just not interested enough ( or too lazy  ) to do the research and see how they compare to the rest of the market in those years.

As I noted in another posting some time ago.  I made enough money on the sale of Harley stock to pay for my Valkyrie.  They are still on my radar but their stock prices are far from stable though they got a shot in the arm earlier this year when there was talk of a take over and a potential buyer was actually identified. And you are correct, all motorcycle companies had bad years in 2008-2010.

[buzz]

We can post profit and sales numbers.  We can listen to songs about Harleys.  We can look at the Harley sales go up in other countries.  But it doesn’t change the fact that Harley is still an outdated and archaic design compared to other motorcycle manufacturers.

Our American pop culture has migrated to other countries around the world.  We, and now they, merged the word "motorcycle" with visions of tattooed nonconformists who all stand around with belligerent expressions on their faces and who wouldn't be caught dead wearing anything but black leather.  There's an entire world of motorcyclists out there who'd rather be out riding than posing around parking lots admiring each other's overpriced driveway jewelry.

I've got nothing against bikers. I mean REAL bikers, you know, the guys  who rode motorcycles and acted antisocially because they didn't give a damn what anyone else thought about them. All we've got now are guys who walk into a dealership; sign a loan large enough to pay for a college degree, then buy a closet-full of "I'm bad!" T-shirts (black, of course), and head for the nearest parking lot so they can show off their new toy. Yeah, real individuals, these guys, along with the 500 other guys in that parking lot just like them.

When these guys do take to the roads, it's always in multitudes the likes of which haven't been seen since the exodus scene from "The Ten Commandments." They travel around like a colossal chrome and leather millipede, each rider sporting a tough guy sneer (or maybe it's a grimace of pain - bugs and rocks pinging off an unprotected noggin can't be pleasant).

It's difficult to understand the attraction of these gatherings. I mean, what's fun about waiting an hour for your food when you and 50 of your friends show up at a restaurant? Or spending half an hour sitting in the sun at a gas station while you wait for a pump to open up? Or traveling at a pace usually reserved for Labor Day parades?  OK, I can understand the fun of feeling part of something. But c'mon, if you wanted to hang out with a bunch of guys all wearing the same clothes, couldn't you have joined the Cub Scouts or something?

Trying to do my best to differentiate between motorcycle, motorcyclists and biker wannabes.  So, speaking to the rest of the world, there are "bikers" and there are "motorcyclists." Motorcyclists are those of us who wake up and immediately think, "Where can I ride today?"  We don't need 50 of our friends to join us, nor do we particularly care what color our T-shirts are, because we probably won't have our riding jackets off long enough for anyone to notice them.

My comments are my analysis of what myth Harley and our culture have created and now exporting it to others.  It is my personal observation made during many years of riding motorcycles.    

[Gryphon Rider]

If Japan, Italy, and Germany did product development the same way that Harley Davidson does, there wouldn't be Honda, Ducati, or BMW bikes. There wouldn't be VCRs, mini-TVs, or Sony Walkmans. We'd all still be listening to wind up phonographs and watching black and white TV through vacuum tubes. Milwaukee churns out the same tired old designs every year, a piece of this model, a piece of that model, change the tank, paint it black, add forty pounds of chrome and three grand to the price and give it a name like American Historical Limited Edition Super Extra Easy Wide Glide FGXLHR or something equally incoherent and viola!  You have a brand new Harley for this model year.

I wouldn't sell America too short when it comes to consumer technology.  I'm not an expert, but as I look around at the kids here at the university, I'm see an awful lot of Apple, Microsoft, and Google products in use.  Then there's this thing called GPS, and another called the internet.  I think Americans had something to do with them.

New technology is great when it adds value that the customer appreciates, but there is a place for tried-and-true.  The human voice and acoustic instruments will still sell records (or CDs or MP3s), even in Europe and Asia.

[Farther]

Nothing better then the sound of thunder early morning in the Hills.

Me too!  Looks like the section of I-90 between Rapid and Sturgis. 

[buzz]

If Japan, Italy, and Germany did product development the same way that Harley Davidson does, there wouldn't be Honda, Ducati, or BMW bikes. There wouldn't be VCRs, mini-TVs, or Sony Walkmans. We'd all still be listening to wind up phonographs and watching black and white TV through vacuum tubes. Milwaukee churns out the same tired old designs every year, a piece of this model, a piece of that model, change the tank, paint it black, add forty pounds of chrome and three grand to the price and give it a name like American Historical Limited Edition Super Extra Easy Wide Glide FGXLHR or something equally incoherent and viola!  You have a brand new Harley for this model year.

I wouldn't sell America too short when it comes to consumer technology.  I'm not an expert, but as I look around at the kids here at the university, I'm see an awful lot of Apple, Microsoft, and Google products in use.  Then there's this thing called GPS, and another called the internet.  I think Americans had something to do with them.

New technology is great when it adds value that the customer appreciates, but there is a place for tried-and-true.  The human voice and acoustic instruments will still sell records (or CDs or MP3s), even in Europe and Asia.

You missed my point.  I was talking about the Harley Davidson Corp. and motorcycles we produce.

[fudgie]

Nothing better then the sound of thunder early morning in the Hills.

Me too!  Looks like the section of I-90 between Rapid and Sturgis. 

Yep. Off the bridge at exit 37.

[The Anvil]

You cannot consider that an improvement when it does not come close to what they were doing in 2007-08. 

Well, yes you can because if you want to keep things in perspective then you need to look at economic factors the world over. It's been a down few years for pretty much EVERYTHING that isn't essential.

[Gryphon Rider]

If Japan, Italy, and Germany did product development the same way that Harley Davidson does, there wouldn't be Honda, Ducati, or BMW bikes. There wouldn't be VCRs, mini-TVs, or Sony Walkmans. We'd all still be listening to wind up phonographs and watching black and white TV through vacuum tubes. Milwaukee churns out the same tired old designs every year, a piece of this model, a piece of that model, change the tank, paint it black, add forty pounds of chrome and three grand to the price and give it a name like American Historical Limited Edition Super Extra Easy Wide Glide FGXLHR or something equally incoherent and viola!  You have a brand new Harley for this model year.

I wouldn't sell America too short when it comes to consumer technology.  I'm not an expert, but as I look around at the kids here at the university, I'm see an awful lot of Apple, Microsoft, and Google products in use.  Then there's this thing called GPS, and another called the internet.  I think Americans had something to do with them.

New technology is great when it adds value that the customer appreciates, but there is a place for tried-and-true.  The human voice and acoustic instruments will still sell records (or CDs or MP3s), even in Europe and Asia.

You missed my point.  I was talking about the Harley Davidson Corp. and motorcycles we produce.

I didn't miss your point, I was making my own while trying to subtly point out your lack of understanding of why HD builds the product they do.  America is perfectly capable of producing and selling leading technology to serve markets that demand it.  If HD thought they could profitably gain market share by producing leading edge motorcycles, they have certainly had the resources to do it.  The fact of the matter is, they know their market and know what their customers will buy, so they do what they do best: produce a decent quality machine with all the features their customers are willing to pay for, at an excellent profit margin (until the current recession, anyway).  They produce beautiful wind-up phonographs because their customers LOVE to crank the handle, but they've updated the discs to 33 1/3 LPs and play them in stereo, and they sound pretty good, even to people who buy their songs at iTunes.

[mrider]

honestly who really gives a crap about any of it ! Are you going to live are die by Harley ? i know some brothers that do but their attitudes are a whole different matter, i ride a Harley as well as a Valk and a wing and i could give a crap what anybody thinks about it so if it doesn't affect you or your family directly then let them go blow.......just my 2 cents.

[The Anvil]

They produce beautiful wind-up phonographs because their customers LOVE to crank the handle, but they've updated the discs to 33 1/3 LPs and play them in stereo, and they sound pretty good, even to people who buy their songs at iTunes.

That's a brilliant analogy.

Because for most Americans motorcycles are entertainment, much like music even beyond the predictable exhaust "note" analogy. When I listen to music I'm transported back to a certain time in my life depending on where I happened to be when I first heard a song or can associate a particular moment with it.

Smell, sound, taste, vision, tactile sensation... all of these things can take us somewhere else. Well, motorcycles flood every sense and if you are lucky you are rewarded with memories and some degree of time travel. Some people are looking to recapture or cling to a different time in their lives and maybe it involved a Harley or maybe they've always wanted one. Others might be looking to manufacture new memories and see a Harley as the best way to do it. Some are nostalgic for a time they may not even have experienced. Others may just be looking to impress someone. Why they do it is their business, but I get it.

How many people who crap on Harleys and deride them as "old technology" would run right out and buy a newly manufactured 57 Chevy or 1970 Mustang if offered for a reasonable price? I'm guessing probably a lot.

I'm a guitar player and for 90% of rock musicians vacuum tubes are still the way to go. Do you know why? Because a quality tube amp simply sounds better than even the best solid state amp and responds to input dynamics in a way that's eerily bionic, even though tubes have been obsolete for 40 years. Do tubes have drawbacks? Sure. They're fragile, expensive, temperamental and because of their dynamic response they do not forgive a lack of talent. But they're still better. Some things you can't necessarily improve upon despite the advantages that new technology may enjoy in other areas. Fact not opinion.

And lastly, I do chuckle when die-hard Valkyrie riders criticize H-D for being obsolete. The Valkyrie offers no real concessions to modernity. Overhead cams (been around for about a century), carbs and two valves per cylinder, stone simple stuff here people. No EFI, no digital ignition, no mulitvale aspiration, no shower injectors, no downdraft intake tract, no exhaust powervalves, no turbos... nothing. The Valk is a beautiful dinosaur, a T-Rex with double D's and loose morals. But it's still a dinosaur.

 

[buzz]

I understand your point/s.  I still think that by catering to the demand of the, let's call them Harley riders, we keep the American dream dormant.  Once again, we support an image without substance.  Harley can still fulfill the demand by supplying that same old HD.  But, they also need to have other, more advanced models, to compete with the rest of the manufacturers.  The HD image craze will fade away one day and Harley will be left with nothing.    

[The Anvil]

I understand your point/s.  I still think that by catering to the demand of the, let's call them Harley riders, we keep the American dream dormant.  Once again, we support an image without substance.  Harley can still fulfill the demand by supplying that same old HD.  But, they also need to have other, more advanced models, to compete with the rest of the manufacturers.  The HD image craze will fade away one day and Harley will be left with nothing.    

Have you ever actually ridden one? They can do everything you ask of them. What do they need that they do not have?

[jarid]

How about pass a bus without $3k in engine mods.

[bigguy]

The Valk is a beautiful dinosaur, a T-Rex with double D's and loose morals. But it's still a dinosaur.

Gonna get me some lizzard.

[The Anvil]

How about pass a bus without $3k in engine mods.

My Evo Harley (and Evo's were REALLY slow compared to the new stuff) could do that and it had an exhaust and proper jetting. Hardly 3000 dollars in engine mods.

[biguglyman]

"Harley Davidson: The single most efficient way to transform gasoline into noise without the unwanted side effect of horsepower." - unknown\

Buddy of mine at work with a serious case of the Harley "attitude" scattered rice around my Gold Wing in the parking lot at work one day.  Reference to it being a "rice burner" even though I explained it was made in Ohio.  Went out the next day and scattered pennies around his Harley.  He didn't get it.

[jarid]

How about pass a bus without $3k in engine mods.

I have actually had three freinds/co workers complain about passing power,even saying the lack of power was dangerous.

[The Anvil]

How about pass a bus without $3k in engine mods.

I have actually had three freinds/co workers complain about passing power,even saying the lack of power was dangerous.

Depending on the model passing power isn't always "abundant" but I've always found it adequate (assuming that you're not trying to pass a Corvette). In fact, the only time a lack of passing power is really "dangerous" is when the rider doesn't know his bike's limits and bites off more that they can chew. That's not the bike's fault.

[buzz]

I understand your point/s.  I still think that by catering to the demand of the, let's call them Harley riders, we keep the American dream dormant.  Once again, we support an image without substance.  Harley can still fulfill the demand by supplying that same old HD.  But, they also need to have other, more advanced models, to compete with the rest of the manufacturers.  The HD image craze will fade away one day and Harley will be left with nothing.    

Have you ever actually ridden one? They can do everything you ask of them. What do they need that they do not have?

Had one and got rid of it.  I was spending more time fixing it then riding.  HDs got a lot better with time but it doesn't say much since they were crap to begin with.  One of the guys I ride with just got one of the top of the line Electra Glides (Screening Eagle).  Paid 38K for it.  Broke down twice in three months and had to bring it back to the dealer for two recalls.  Now, I'm sure there will be a lot of posts regarding their problem-free Harleys and to that I say GREAT.  Enjoy your bikes.  

How about routine maintenance?  Ask your friends if you don’t own or never owned a Harley.  All I hear from my friends is how they got raped by their Harley dealer.  You have to bring your bike in for routine maintenance every 5K or they will not honor the warranty.  It’s $300-$400 every 5K (assuming nothing had to be done other than the oil change).

Valks are also not the vanguard of technology.  But the initial design and quality control subsequently carries over to the durability and performance.  So let's see, why would I ride a Harley? Power? Nope. Handling? Nope. See a Harley on the race track? Nope.

These are the images that come to mind when I think of a Harley: cheap beer, truck stops, bad country music, tattoos up one arm and down the other, leather wallet on a chain, German W.W.II helmet with the spike on top, murals on the tank, Grim Reaper, uncut beard, Hell's Angels, Nazis, smoke filled bars, knife hidden in the boot, American flag bandanna instead of a helmet, tassels, wannabe riders. Everything that motorcycles are not supposed to stand for.

[RoadKill]

You guys can talk trash...until you get whipped by an old school 1340 EVO. Then it's just excuses. The Valk is perfection,but any mouse trap can be improved. 

[Buda]

A few bad apples.....there are douchebags riding all makes of bike.  I ride mostly alone but the few guys I do ride with are Harley riders.  A bit of ball busting goes on but thats what guys do 

[Jess Tolbirt]

people talk about putting money in harleys to make them go faster,,and brag on thier bike being just great the way it is..
but what about the chevys and fords and dodges out there? what is the first thing you do when you get one? you start putting things on them to make them go faster, cams, borg warner t-10 trannys, 4bbl carbs, hi rise manifolds and the list goes on and on,,some of us even ran slicks on ours,,,LOL cause they were wore out mostly,,,

[Valkahuna]

Buzz ,

Never before has so little been said in so many words.   You keep spouting personal opinion and anecdotal third or fourth generation hearsay.

Harleys have not leaked (as a chronic problem rather than individual cases) since the Shovel Head. When people talk about HD "marking it's spot" they were talking about the old lost oil primary lube system which goes back a long time.  

I'm done. You are entitled to your opinions, just don't pass them off to be facts.  ???

[The Anvil]

I understand your point/s.  I still think that by catering to the demand of the, let's call them Harley riders, we keep the American dream dormant.  Once again, we support an image without substance.  Harley can still fulfill the demand by supplying that same old HD.  But, they also need to have other, more advanced models, to compete with the rest of the manufacturers.  The HD image craze will fade away one day and Harley will be left with nothing.    

Have you ever actually ridden one? They can do everything you ask of them. What do they need that they do not have?

Had one and got rid of it.  I was spending more time fixing it then riding.  HDs got a lot better with time but it doesn't say much since they were crap to begin with.  One of the guys I ride with just got one of the top of the line Electra Glides (Screening Eagle).  Paid 38K for it.  Broke down twice in three months and had to bring it back to the dealer for two recalls.  Now, I'm sure there will be a lot of posts regarding their problem-free Harleys and to that I say GREAT.  Enjoy your bikes.  

How about routine maintenance?  Ask your friends if you don’t own or never owned a Harley.  All I hear from my friends is how they got raped by their Harley dealer.  You have to bring your bike in for routine maintenance every 5K or they will not honor the warranty.  It’s $300-$400 every 5K (assuming nothing had to be done other than the oil change).

Valks are also not the vanguard of technology.  But the initial design and quality control subsequently carries over to the durability and performance.  So let's see, why would I ride a Harley? Power? Nope. Handling? Nope. See a Harley on the race track? Nope.

These are the images that come to mind when I think of a Harley: cheap beer, truck stops, bad country music, tattoos up one arm and down the other, leather wallet on a chain, German W.W.II helmet with the spike on top, murals on the tank, Grim Reaper, uncut beard, Hell's Angels, Nazis, smoke filled bars, knife hidden in the boot, American flag bandanna instead of a helmet, tassels, wannabe riders. Everything that motorcycles are not supposed to stand for.

I've owned a couple. Stone reliable, both of them, and one was s Buell X1 that I absolutely wrung the hell out of and did trackdays with (in fact Buell enjoyed a VERY successful racing campaign until H-D pulled the plug, so yes, until very recently you DID see them on racetracks). I ride with a guy who has a 1988 Dyna with 135,000 miles on it and he rarely has issues and when he does they're electrical and I blame him because of his hatchet stereo wiring.

I'm sorry but your assertions just don't amount to anything more than the same misinformation that people regurgitate all the time regarding H-D products. I can cite all of the hydrolocking and final drive/wheelbearing failures as proof that Honda is far from perfect, but even that's not fair because those things tend to get magnified out of proportion. The VAST majority of Valk riders enjoy trouble free miles.

As far as routine maintenance, H-D is actually less maintenance intensive than the Valk. Just keep refreshing the lubricants and keep the belt properly adjusted, that's it. No final drive lube, no valve adjustments, no carbs to synch...

I chortled (you're welcome Joe) at this: "These are the images that come to mind when I think of a Harley: cheap beer, truck stops, bad country music, tattoos up one arm and down the other, leather wallet on a chain, German W.W.II helmet with the spike on top, murals on the tank, Grim Reaper, uncut beard, Hell's Angels, Nazis, smoke filled bars, knife hidden in the boot, American flag bandanna instead of a helmet, tassels, wannabe riders. Everything that motorcycles are not supposed to stand for." 

Well good for you, you see nothing but stereotypes. You're quite the forward thinker ain't ya?    And I didn't laugh at all of it. The Nazi remark is out of line. If H-D's remind you of Nazis then that says more about you than it does the people who ride them.

The eye of the beholder is important here, but even if they DID represent that, who the hell are YOU to decide what motorcycling IS supposed to be about? That too is subjective to the rider. Something tells me that you really should be on a BMW actually.

[buzz]

Is it my personal opinion? Yes.  Not trying to make everyone agree with me.  Is my opinion based on personal experience and observation?  Yes.  I just wrote my responses to the original post “Why the animosity Toward Harley Products”.  I think I’m gonna go and buy myself a Harley.  LOL.  Happy Thanksgiving Everyone. 

[RoadKill]

It's all about a stereotype....We are ALL victims of one stereotype or another. I strive to be non-stereotypical every chance I get and yet I am still,routinely, a victim of such prejudice.

But I bitch about it less and that removes me from MANY other stereotypes! 

[fudgie]

These are the images that come to mind when I think of a Harley: cheap beer, truck stops, bad country music, tattoos up one arm and down the other, leather wallet on a chain, German W.W.II helmet with the spike on top, murals on the tank, Grim Reaper, uncut beard, Hell's Angels, Nazis, smoke filled bars, knife hidden in the boot, American flag bandanna instead of a helmet, tassels, wannabe riders. Everything that motorcycles are not supposed to stand for.

What are motorcycle suppose to 'stand' for? 

[bscrive]

For me, a motorcycle is a way to get from point A to point B in the best, most fun way possible.  Well....maybe being in a jet fighter would be more fun but I am yet to try that.

[DarkMeister]

This 'debate' has ended up in a stew of several issues, separate ones: motorcycles, riders and corporations.   In reverse order:

A successful corporate model. Ya gotta give it to them. They fill a sizeable niche, target a particular group of clients. What company doesn't promote their brand? These guys know what buttons to push and where the money is. They can appeal to mystique, tradition, performance, whatever works.

Riders - we come in all shapes, sizes, attitudes, with varying motivations, skills and preferences. Some of us may not like the posers, pirates or prima-donnas; others find them amusing. Bottom line - they are all riders, after all. Part of our community, whether we (or they) like it or not.

Motorcycles; and this is what it boils down to. Different strokes for different folks. Again, our individual preferences are the key. I, for one, tend to respect all of them. Two or so wheels, an engine, and we're in business. From that point on it's one's own riding desires that are the key. Your bike will reflect that, be it cruising the city boulevards, touring cross-country, weekend twisties, or hitting the track for all out performance. Any bike will 'pass a bus', even a Vespa, and have enough agility and zip to get out of tight situations better than a cage. Some look for all out power. Others for enough to safely carry a couple of people. IMHO, motorcycles "stand for" as many different things as there are riders.
I can't pin down why I love the Valk the way I do, probably because it's a combination of factors and it appeals to ME for various reasons. Harleys still turn my head and, like I told the wife, I'll end up with one at some point "just to get it out of my system" (though that might backfire; who knows).

Just some thoughts on why brand-bashing serves no purpose.  

[Valkahuna]

This 'debate' has ended up in a stew of several issues, separate ones: motorcycles, riders and corporations.   In reverse order:

A successful corporate model. Ya gotta give it to them. They fill a sizeable niche, target a particular group of clients. What company doesn't promote their brand? These guys know what buttons to push and where the money is. They can appeal to mystique, tradition, performance, whatever works.

Riders - we come in all shapes, sizes, attitudes, with varying motivations, skills and preferences. Some of us may not like the posers, pirates or prima-donnas; others find them amusing. Bottom line - they are all riders, after all. Part of our community, whether we (or they) like it or not.

Motorcycles; and this is what it boils down to. Different strokes for different folks. Again, our individual preferences are the key. I, for one, tend to respect all of them. Two or so wheels, an engine, and we're in business. From that point on it's one's own riding desires that are the key. Your bike will reflect that, be it cruising the city boulevards, touring cross-country, weekend twisties, or hitting the track for all out performance. Any bike will 'pass a bus', even a Vespa, and have enough agility and zip to get out of tight situations better than a cage. Some look for all out power. Others for enough to safely carry a couple of people. IMHO, motorcycles "stand for" as many different things as there are riders.
I can't pin down why I love the Valk the way I do, probably because it's a combination of factors and it appeals to ME for various reasons. Harleys still turn my head and, like I told the wife, I'll end up with one at some point "just to get it out of my system" (though that might backfire; who knows).

Just some thoughts on why brand-bashing serves no purpose.  

Very well said. 

That is what my thoughts are pretty much to a "T"

[usmc1142]

Honestly, I think harley makes a great product.... if you ride it.  Any machine will leak oil if you let the seals dry up.  There are some awesome looking harleys out there, if you are willing to spend a few bucks to make it stand out.  From experience though, a valk turns my head if it is bone stock or decked out.  I just happen to like the design.  to each his own.  When they start giving harleys away, I'll be first in line,(riding to the line on my valk).
  Remember, it's not the bike, it's the person.  I know some great harley riders and some weiner head wing riders.

[Hoser]

It's all about a stereotype....We are ALL victims of one stereotype or another. I strive to be non-stereotypical every chance I get and yet I am still,routinely, a victim of such prejudice.

But I bitch about it less and that removes me from MANY other stereotypes! 

I can't think of any stereotype that you resemble Roadie, and I've seen a lot of em.  I'm not even sure of your species yet!  I admire that in a person.   Hoser  

[Jess Tolbirt]

i have always said the best bike in the world would be a Harley with Valkyrie engine and running gear and Harleys gas mileage,,
I knew a guy in Tyler Texas back in the 80's that put a gold wing rear half on a fat bob front half,, that bike was cool...

[Hoser]

You never hear songs about Hondas. 

Hondels - Little Honda

OMG, we'll never live that down!  Maybe I'll make a video, I got the bike for it.   Hoser