Who Cares who Marries Who?

[Alien]

I really wish that some of you religious folks would let God do His own condeming and judging.  Stop trying to force others to adhere to YOUR beliefs.  Let those of us who operate rationally do so in peace.  Something to keep in mind:  That which we hate in others is often that which we hate in ourselves.  

As long as I'm paying the bills through taxes and insurance for the cost of treating sexual deseases spread by way of immoral sexual behavior ...

 ... I have every f-----g right to push my moral views on others.

And as long as I am doing the same, I have every f-----g right to tell you just exactly WHERE you can push those moral views.  Also, as a person in the medical field, I would suggest that you do some research on how disease is spread.  Morality is subjective, what's moral to you may be immoral to someone else.

[Jabba]

As long as I'm paying the bills through taxes and insurance for the cost of treating sexual deseases spread by way of immoral sexual behavior ...

 ... I have every f-----g right to push my moral views on others.

As do the masses to force you not to smoke, drink, partake in marajuana, ride a motorcycle, eat too much, or consume fatty foods...?

Whatever.  Society is FULL of things we do that brings on medical costs, and claiming your paying the bills for that is a slippery slope of a cop out. 

If we could stop paying for illegals that would be a giant chunk.  How about sex before marriage?  How much cost is incurred from unwanted pregnancies and the subsequent welfare from those immoral births? 

Are you ready to make premarital sex against the law due to the cost it exerts on you?

Jabba

[Robert]

I really wish that some of you religious folks would let God do His own condeming and judging.  Stop trying to force others to adhere to YOUR beliefs.  Let those of us who operate rationally do so in peace.  Something to keep in mind:  That which we hate in others is often that which we hate in ourselves.  

God already did make the judgment, why do you think He changed His mind? I live here in the US and you want to make things comfortable for yourself why wouldn't I want to make things comfortable for myself? Everyday Christians are forced to accept things that go contrary to what we believe and for the most part we do. But I dont see any need to let people like Obama and you, are to me the misinformed make decisions for me. As I see the rational ones trampling on the Constitution and not having the balls to call Congress on the carpet for misdeeds but jumping in with them. Allowing the likes of Goldman Sachs to manufacture a crisis that we have to pay for. Frankly Ive just about had enough of those that call themselves Rational.

[Robert]

Nobody has said why civil unions are unacceptable to the gay community. They already adopt kids have joint bank accounts have all the basic rights of the married community.

[Paxton]

"You can safely assume you've created God in your own image
when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."
Anne Lamott

[Chrisj CMA]

"You can safely assume you've created God in your own image
when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."
Anne Lamott

I dont know who Anne Lamott is but she certainely knows nothing about God.  What an ignorant hateful statement!

[Clark]

I really wish that some of you religious folks would let God do His own condeming and judging.  Stop trying to force others to adhere to YOUR beliefs.  Let those of us who operate rationally do so in peace.  Something to keep in mind:  That which we hate in others is often that which we hate in ourselves.  

speakin of f------ rights and the medical field... maybe you could give an anatomy lesson on how the anus is supposed to be corrolated with sex from the perspective of the creator.. be it God or darwin

As long as I'm paying the bills through taxes and insurance for the cost of treating sexual deseases spread by way of immoral sexual behavior ...

 ... I have every f-----g right to push my moral views on others.

And as long as I am doing the same, I have every f-----g right to tell you just exactly WHERE you can push those moral views.  Also, as a person in the medical field, I would suggest that you do some research on how disease is spread.  Morality is subjective, what's moral to you may be immoral to someone else.

[The Anvil]

"You can safely assume you've created God in your own image
when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."
Anne Lamott

I dont know who Anne Lamott is but she certainely knows nothing about God.  What an ignorant hateful statement!

It's more of a commentary on humans than God, Chris. The "you've created god" part rather than the other way around. A lot of "religious" people do exactly that; create the god that reflects their own opinions.

[The Anvil]

Whats wrong with "Hate" ?

It's a very powerfull emotion that is very usefull.
In fact Christians are instructed to love what is good and hate what is evil.

Hate the sin, not the sinner. I know what you're saying but I don't agree about hate ever really being useful. Sometimes we feel it and sometimes we're entitled to it because there are things that deserve it. But it's not a positive force for anything as hate is a consumer of all things. On a personal level it damages the hater far more than the hated and is often returned in kind creating a vicious cycle. On a grander scale it can lead to world war.

And what of when the hate is not deserved? And what criteria do you use to decide whether it's valid or not? What happens if someone realizes that the target of their hate wasn't deserving? That person may start to hate themselves for (ironically) being hateful.

It's best to just eliminate it from your life altogether. Let other things like love, common sense and duty guide you.

[Serk]

Whats wrong with "Hate" ?

It's a very powerfull emotion that is very usefull.
In fact Christians are instructed to love what is good and hate what is evil.

Hate the sin, not the sinner. I know what you're saying but I don't agree about hate ever really being useful. Sometimes we feel it and sometimes we're entitled to it because there are things that deserve it. But it's not a positive force for anything as hate is a consumer of all things. On a personal level it damages the hater far more than the hated and is often returned in kind creating a vicious cycle. On a grander scale it can lead to world war.

And what of when the hate is not deserved? And what criteria do you use to decide whether it's valid or not? What happens if someone realizes that the target of their hate wasn't deserving? That person may start to hate themselves for (ironically) being hateful.

It's best to just eliminate it from your life altogether. Let other things like love, common sense and duty guide you.

Or as Gandalf the Grey put it:

"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

[Robert]

Whats wrong with "Hate" ?

It's a very powerfull emotion that is very usefull.
In fact Christians are instructed to love what is good and hate what is evil.

Hate the sin, not the sinner. I know what you're saying but I don't agree about hate ever really being useful. Sometimes we feel it and sometimes we're entitled to it because there are things that deserve it. But it's not a positive force for anything as hate is a consumer of all things. On a personal level it damages the hater far more than the hated and is often returned in kind creating a vicious cycle. On a grander scale it can lead to world war.

And what of when the hate is not deserved? And what criteria do you use to decide whether it's valid or not? What happens if someone realizes that the target of their hate wasn't deserving? That person may start to hate themselves for (ironically) being hateful.

It's best to just eliminate it from your life altogether. Let other things like love, common sense and duty guide you.

Really good Anvil.

[musclehead]

Whats wrong with "Hate" ?

It's a very powerfull emotion that is very usefull.
In fact Christians are instructed to love what is good and hate what is evil.

Hate the sin, not the sinner. I know what you're saying but I don't agree about hate ever really being useful. Sometimes we feel it and sometimes we're entitled to it because there are things that deserve it. But it's not a positive force for anything as hate is a consumer of all things. On a personal level it damages the hater far more than the hated and is often returned in kind creating a vicious cycle. On a grander scale it can lead to world war.

And what of when the hate is not deserved? And what criteria do you use to decide whether it's valid or not? What happens if someone realizes that the target of their hate wasn't deserving? That person may start to hate themselves for (ironically) being hateful.

It's best to just eliminate it from your life altogether. Let other things like love, common sense and duty guide you.

i thought it was hate the sin but love the sinner?

[The Anvil]

Whats wrong with "Hate" ?

It's a very powerfull emotion that is very usefull.
In fact Christians are instructed to love what is good and hate what is evil.

Hate the sin, not the sinner. I know what you're saying but I don't agree about hate ever really being useful. Sometimes we feel it and sometimes we're entitled to it because there are things that deserve it. But it's not a positive force for anything as hate is a consumer of all things. On a personal level it damages the hater far more than the hated and is often returned in kind creating a vicious cycle. On a grander scale it can lead to world war.

And what of when the hate is not deserved? And what criteria do you use to decide whether it's valid or not? What happens if someone realizes that the target of their hate wasn't deserving? That person may start to hate themselves for (ironically) being hateful.

It's best to just eliminate it from your life altogether. Let other things like love, common sense and duty guide you.

i thought it was hate the sin but love the sinner?

Yeah something like that.

[BradValk48237]

So... as I understand it CHURCH and STATE are seperate....

SO if you get married at City Hall and not in a church, does that mean that its not a legal marriage before God?  Because that is not a religious marriage and the Church and State are separate?  So does that mean that all the people that don't get married in a church are living in sin? I believe all states that is a recognize that as a legal marriage and not a Church marriage.

SO all in all the Bible has no say in this matter... the government can if it wishes to....

It is to do with having the same Civill and Legal rights as others in a committed relationship...Not religious....

So if Church and State are separate.... Why should Religious Persons dictate what the Government does for non religious persons....

And the Constitution does say that all MEN are created equal......

And that all have the right to happiness.....

Also "Morals" are a general set of rules agreed upon by a certain community of people.... What can be considered "moral' in one place may be taboo in another...... THings that are accepted now might have gotten you jailed in another time and place.... Bi racial marriage anyone?

And sorry to say, the majority of the world does not follow the dictates of the Christian Bible.... Most Christians do not follow the letter of the Bible.... Just read Leviticus and see how man of the items listed there are still practiced.....Do you follow the laws of sacrifice? Are you circumcised?????? Do you eat unclean animals? Gumbo anyone?

Bigger picture.... as Christians... Do you tithe? Don't Lie? EVER? those is sins too!

Also, if the OLD testament is not followed directly by most MODERN Christians... forgive my ignorance, but where in the NEW Testament does it say that Homosexuality is wrong?



Point is we all choose to use laws and words as we see fit...... What no speeders out there...??? It only affects us when we get caught.... BUt to make a thing unlawful for some that the majority will never have to worry about it is wrong..... Just cause you dont like it....

I dont like the fact that my neighbors house is a really ugly color... but its his right to paint it that way.....

If there is a law against it, and it infringes on the rights of a minority that does not want to follow it, it is their right to get it changed.... Hello... Helmet laws.

We live in a changing world and you can either go with the changes or stay where you are and let the rest alone.... The golden rule should be the only rule and everyone should look in a mirror before they cast that first stone..... I don't care what you believe or do in your home, group, or community or even in public... I 'm just getting sick and tired of the Hypocrisy......

Brad

[The Anvil]

What's kind of being forgotten about in all of this is the fact that a state is about to modify it's constitution to specifically deny a freedom. Think about that.

There are quite a few people who feel that the US Constitution should be amended in a similar fashion. That is not in the spirit of the document IMNSHO.

[Chrisj CMA]

Brad you clearly have very little understanding of the Bible if you are criticizing Christians for failing to observe Levitical law or for the inability to perfectly keep the commandments.  I wont even go any further than to say you just dont understand so Ill give you a pass on that one.

All the government can do is have an affect on the legal aspect of marriage.  To City hall it makes no difference what one church or another says....if two humans satisfy the law and are issued a marriage certificate from the state then they are married legally..........has nothing to do with religion, in fact if the government tries to force churches to marry homosexuals against their doctrinal view or wishes, then that would be unconstitutional IMHO

And the other side is, if a state bans legal homosexual marriage yet, a church in any state marries a couple..(the government should not have any say so to a church)...the state doesnt have to recognize it, so it would then be meaningless to City Hall because they wouldnt register it or issue a certificate

[Chrisj CMA]

Brad

Also, if the OLD testament is not followed directly by most MODERN Christians... forgive my ignorance, but where in the NEW Testament does it say that Homosexuality is wrong?

Just read the entire first chapter of the Book of Romans (New Testament) It is rather clear there.........

[ComradBlack]

I really wish that some of you religious folks would let God do His own condeming and judging.  Stop trying to force others to adhere to YOUR beliefs.  Let those of us who operate rationally do so in peace.  Something to keep in mind:  That which we hate in others is often that which we hate in ourselves.  

As long as I'm paying the bills through taxes and insurance for the cost of treating sexual deseases spread by way of immoral sexual behavior ...

 ... I have every f-----g right to push my moral views on others.

And as long as I am doing the same, I have every f-----g right to tell you just exactly WHERE you can push those moral views.  Also, as a person in the medical field, I would suggest that you do some research on how disease is spread.  Morality is subjective, what's moral to you may be immoral to someone else.

ah ha ... 

As do the masses to force you not to smoke, drink, partake in marajuana, ride a motorcycle, eat too much, or consume fatty foods...?

Whatever.  Society is FULL of things we do that brings on medical costs, and claiming your paying the bills for that is a slippery slope of a cop out. 

If we could stop paying for illegals that would be a giant chunk.  How about sex before marriage?  How much cost is incurred from unwanted pregnancies and the subsequent welfare from those immoral births? 

Are you ready to make premarital sex against the law due to the cost it exerts on you?

Jabba

Well ya both missed the mark.

I'm not saying ya can't.

Im saying I have the right to stick my nose in your business and say its wrong.

Thats all.

Don't like it ?

Too f------g bad.

[Clark]

I love  my dog.. but i aint plannin on marryin it or havin sex with it...

[Chrisj CMA]

I love  my dog.. but i aint plannin on marryin it or havin sex with it...

Well, I think we all are thankful you straightned that one out.........

[ComradBlack]

So... as I understand it CHURCH and STATE are seperate....

SO if you get married at City Hall and not in a church, does that mean that its not a legal marriage before God?  Because that is not a religious marriage and the Church and State are separate?  So does that mean that all the people that don't get married in a church are living in sin? I believe all states that is a recognize that as a legal marriage and not a Church marriage.

True ... if you get married at City hall or a JP ... you do not have a Judeo-Christian Marriage.

You have a Marriage that is recognized by the Government ... but not the God of the Judeo-Christian faith.

And to answer perhaps the next question ...

Do Jews and Christians view their Marriage as being different from that a secular marriage ?

The answer would be yes.

Our vows to God and each other is what is important ... we make no vow to government.
Most times we sign a legal document from the government .... but it is after the fact and of not much importance.

So the final conclusion is .. even if homosexuals do get the legal right to be married ... the essence of the union still lacks that of a Judeo-Christian marriage.

[Serk]

And... with one interview this issue is now officially elevated to wedge issue status in the 2012 Presidential elections:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/05/09/obama-expected-to-discuss-gay-marriage-position/

[Alien]

Can't you be a good Christian and practice your beliefs without infringing on the rights or others?  Not everyone is Christian.  Why should non Christians be held to the standard of your Christian faith?

How does gay marriage diminish you?  It doesn't.  If Neil and Bob get married, it doesn't take ANYTHING away from my marriage.  I am no less committed to my wife.  

How weak is your belief system that it can be threatened by the peaceful, loving actions of people whom you've never met and never will meet?

[ComradBlack]

And... with one interview this issue is now officially elevated to wedge issue status in the 2012 Presidential elections:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/05/09/obama-expected-to-discuss-gay-marriage-position/

Had another argument with his Misses ?

Can't blame him for thinking a guy friend would be better.

[Alien]

So... as I understand it CHURCH and STATE are seperate....

SO if you get married at City Hall and not in a church, does that mean that its not a legal marriage before God?  Because that is not a religious marriage and the Church and State are separate?  So does that mean that all the people that don't get married in a church are living in sin? I believe all states that is a recognize that as a legal marriage and not a Church marriage.

True ... if you get married at City hall or a JP ... you do not have a Judeo-Christian Marriage.

You have a Marriage that is recognized by the Government ... but not the God of the Judeo-Christian faith.

And to answer perhaps the next question ...

Do Jews and Christians view their Marriage as being different from that a secular marriage ?

The answer would be yes.

Our vows to God and each other is what is important ... we make no vow to government.
Most times we sign a legal document from the government .... but it is after the fact and of not much importance.

So the final conclusion is .. even if homosexuals do get the legal right to be married ... the essence of the union still lacks that of a Judeo-Christian marriage.

  Oh holy crap.  Now I'm not married???  Because I didn't do it in a church???   You poor self-important arrogant fool.  It is not for you to say what God recognizes.  I know what you're going to say-  "It's in the bible!"  So? Big damn deal.  It's in a book that  MIGHT be the word of God but also contains the words of all the people who wrote it, ttranslated and mistranslated it for a copuple of thousand years.  So take your book and all the fear and hate people have read into it and leave us poor heathens to our own devices.

[ComradBlack]

Can't you be a good Christian and practice your beliefs without infringing on the rights or others?  Not everyone is Christian.  Why should non Christians be held to the standard of your Christian faith?

How does gay marriage diminish you?  It doesn't.  If Neil and Bob get married, it doesn't take ANYTHING away from my marriage.  I am no less committed to my wife.  

How weak is your belief system that it can be threatened by the peaceful, loving actions of people whom you've never met and never will meet?

We dont hold non-Christians to the standard of the Christian faith.

You havn't been paying attention.

I've already said it is our right as citizens in a free society to express our convictions as it pertains to laws that govern us.

I really do not understand why you think Christians, Jews, Muslims should shut up and just go away.

I'll say it again ... as members of a free society we have the right to express our convictions concerning laws that govern us.

Can't you get that simple premise into your head ?

You just want us to go away ... but we don't have to.
You want us to shut up ... but we dont have to.

Your rebuttal is more reminisce of kids arguing on the monkey bars.

Shutup .. go away.

[ComradBlack]

So... as I understand it CHURCH and STATE are seperate....

SO if you get married at City Hall and not in a church, does that mean that its not a legal marriage before God?  Because that is not a religious marriage and the Church and State are separate?  So does that mean that all the people that don't get married in a church are living in sin? I believe all states that is a recognize that as a legal marriage and not a Church marriage.

True ... if you get married at City hall or a JP ... you do not have a Judeo-Christian Marriage.

You have a Marriage that is recognized by the Government ... but not the God of the Judeo-Christian faith.

And to answer perhaps the next question ...

Do Jews and Christians view their Marriage as being different from that a secular marriage ?

The answer would be yes.

Our vows to God and each other is what is important ... we make no vow to government.
Most times we sign a legal document from the government .... but it is after the fact and of not much importance.

So the final conclusion is .. even if homosexuals do get the legal right to be married ... the essence of the union still lacks that of a Judeo-Christian marriage.

  Oh holy crap.  Now I'm not married???  Because I didn't do it in a church???   You poor self-important arrogant fool.  It is not for you to say what God recognizes.  I know what you're going to say-  "It's in the bible!"  So? Big damn deal.  It's in a book that  MIGHT be the word of God but also contains the words of all the people who wrote it, ttranslated and mistranslated it for a copuple of thousand years.  So take your book and all the fear and hate people have read into it and leave us poor heathens to our own devices.

No

Your the ignorant fool.

I never said you wern't married

Thats a lame assumption on your part.

I said you don't have a Judeo-Christian Marriage.

[Jabba]

They CAN'T.

They simply can't allow someone to be what they consider wrong.  It's their DUTY to show us... over and over where we're wrong, they're right and morally superior to us.

Remember conversion by the sword... be Christian or die.  The Muslims don't have THAT cornered throughout history.

Me... i do not know the truth.  I seek the truth, but none of us KNOW the truth until we're dead and gone.  You Christians that CLAIM to know the truth, are no more sure of your "rightness" than any of the other religions out there.  They all know they are right too.  Hell, the radical Muslims are killing themselves because they are so confident that they KNOW what the deal is.

Jabba

[Jabba]

I'll say it again ... as members of a free society we have the right to express our convictions concerning laws that govern us.

Can't you get that simple premise into your head ?

I concede your right to express opinion, but do not concede the right to make enforceable LAW that prohibits the freedoms we all crave and defend.

We should not allow simple majority rule (mob rule, democracy) to establish law.  in order to protect the minority from the majority.  Otherwise we'd just vote ourselves money from everyone else and our whole system would collapse...  wait a minute... I might be onto something.   

Jabba

[Chrisj CMA]

They CAN'T.

They simply can't allow someone to be what they consider wrong.  It's their DUTY to show us... over and over where we're wrong, they're right and morally superior to us.

Remember conversion by the sword... be Christian or die.  The Muslims don't have THAT cornered throughout history.

Me... i do not know the truth.  I seek the truth, but none of us KNOW the truth until we're dead and gone.  You Christians that CLAIM to know the truth, are no more sure of your "rightness" than any of the other religions out there.  They all know they are right too.  Hell, the radical Muslims are killing themselves because they are so confident that they KNOW what the deal is.

Jabba

Its not "be Christian or die"

More like follow Jesus and LIVE.  But I wont tell you youre inferior in any way for not believing.  We are all gone astray and unworthy......no human is righteous on his own without Jesus.  Having God inside is the only righteousness a Christian can claim, we dont deserve it but that is what grace is all about.  

Grace, true forgiveness, SALVATION.......well its simply something you must believe to see......

[ComradBlack]

They CAN'T.

They simply can't allow someone to be what they consider wrong.  It's their DUTY to show us... over and over where we're wrong, they're right and morally superior to us.

Remember conversion by the sword... be Christian or die.  The Muslims don't have THAT cornered throughout history.

Me... i do not know the truth.  I seek the truth, but none of us KNOW the truth until we're dead and gone.  You Christians that CLAIM to know the truth, are no more sure of your "rightness" than any of the other religions out there.  They all know they are right too.  Hell, the radical Muslims are killing themselves because they are so confident that they KNOW what the deal is.

Jabba

Are you nuts ?

What the hell are you talking about.

This thread is about our viewpoints on marriage.

And your going off on a tangent in different directions from the main topic.

It's not about being superior .. those are your stupid words.

Its about our postion and viewpoint on what a marriage is.

If your feeling inferior to the Judeo-Christian position on marriage ... thats your problem.

[hubcapsc]

those are your stupid words.

He doesn't have a record of saying stupid stuff... maybe you missed the
point...

-Mike

[ComradBlack]

They CAN'T.

They simply can't allow someone to be what they consider wrong.  It's their DUTY to show us... over and over where we're wrong, they're right and morally superior to us.

Remember conversion by the sword... be Christian or die.  The Muslims don't have THAT cornered throughout history.

Me... i do not know the truth.  I seek the truth, but none of us KNOW the truth until we're dead and gone.  You Christians that CLAIM to know the truth, are no more sure of your "rightness" than any of the other religions out there.  They all know they are right too.  Hell, the radical Muslims are killing themselves because they are so confident that they KNOW what the deal is.

Jabba

Its not "be Christian or die"

More like follow Jesus and LIVE.  But I wont tell you youre inferior in any way for not believing.  We are all gone astray and unworthy......no human is righteous on his own without Jesus.  Having God inside is the only righteousness a Christian can claim, we dont derserve it but that is what grace is all about. 

Grace, true forgiveness, SALVATION.......well its simply something you must believe to see......

Well said.

[art]

Now you did it Doc.See what you started.As far as Hate goes I hate it when ever I go for a cross country ride the weather turns to crap.

[ComradBlack]

those are your stupid words.

He doesn't have a record of saying stupid stuff... maybe you missed the
point...

-Mike

Well he has a record now ... here's his quote.

They CAN'T.

They simply can't allow someone to be what they consider wrong.  It's their DUTY to show us... over and over where we're wrong, they're right and morally superior to us.
Jabba

I underlined the lame assumption that he brought to the thread.

Gotta tell ya guys ... if you don't want to hear various viewpoints on a topic ... dont start one.

Sheessh.

[ComradBlack]

Now you did it Doc.See what you started.As far as Hate goes I hate it when ever I go for a cross country ride the weather turns to crap.

Did you pray for good weather ?

[Jabba]

I like the different viewpoints.

Chris... it's not be Christian or die... anymore.   But there WAS a time.  There was a lot of conversion by the sword. 

I believe there have been more people killed in the campaign of Christianity than any other.  But I am NOT sure of that.

This thread was about the Constitutional Amendment to prohibit gay marriage.  I didn't bring the law part of it in.  That is the premise of the entire discussion.  The LAW that prohibits gay marriage.  I defend your right to express your opinion about it's wrongness.  I do not support the governments position that it can be BANNED thru constitutional amendment.

Jabba

[art]

Now you did it Doc.See what you started.As far as Hate goes I hate it when ever I go for a cross country ride the weather turns to crap.

Did you pray for good weather ?

No .I asked the valk to point me in the right direction ,that didn't help either

[fudgie]

Just curious
 Why is marriage the holy grail of all gay and homosexuals? I understand the idea of civil rights and that has already been granted in most states. But this seems is not enough. If 2 people love each other then does marriage really count? I know plenty of heterosexuals that live happily together and consider marriage a problem. They have kids, houses, retirement and all the things that go along with it. So why? Or maybe is it the validation by the God instituted marriage or the validation of society to say your ok?

Because much like male/female relationships most end in marriage. It a display of the love and commitment for each other. Isnt this the same reason you got married, I assume you are.

[Gangman036]

Clark had a valid point...........why stop at a same sex marriage?
What would the liberals say about marriage and sex with a goat, dog or good looking sheep.
They have feelings too.
Would the argument then be that you can't go out of your species?
Were does it stop............and why stop there?