Swapping heads vs cams

[Corndog]

Looking for another opinion on a cam swap. I have a set of cams from a 97 49 state bike that I'd like to put on to replace my cali's. The heads are complete, but not as nice of shape as the ones on my bike now (some corrosion, and it looks like there may have been a repaired exhaust stud). Not a deal breaker, but what is the consensus about just swapping the cams? My only real concern is a mismatch in the journal wear of an higher mileage cam (50k mi vs 20k mi on the heads). Also, I forgot to order new exhaust gaskets 

[Chrisj CMA]

I believe there have been others that changed out just the cams.

[Bighead]

I would just like to know if anything is wrong with the bike as is?

[Tfrank59]

I thought 97 cams were different then subsequent years, are they interchangeable?

[Corndog]

Well I dug into it. These 97 49 state cams have R2 cams :\

Should have checked before I got this far down the rabbit hole.

[98valk]

I also was contacting some ebay seller's, found one 49 state '97 that had R2 cams, some '99 and '00 had R2 and were not ca bikes.
One bike had R1 one side and R2 the other side, it was a '99.
Why I suggest everyone to check. R1 will pick up about 10/10 and 3-4 MPG, from all the research I have done. The R2 causes Internal EGR to happen, doesn't work right if it isn't variable cam timing and ignition being monitored by a computer. When the external EGRs went away in vehicles they all use Internal EGR.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,80073.0.html

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,88071.0.html

[Blackduck]

Looks like there are at least 3 grinds for the Valk cams
Next time I have the covers of my Aussie unit I will check the ID on the cams

Cheers Steve

[98valk]

That's interesting Steve, never saw that before. Wonder if a different "R" number.
Thanks

[Patrick]

Looks like there are at least 3 grinds for the Valk cams
Next time I have the covers of my Aussie unit I will check the ID on the cams

Cheers Steve

Hmmm, that is interesting.

[98valk]

Looking for another opinion on a cam swap. I have a set of cams from a 97 49 state bike that I'd like to put on to replace my cali's. The heads are complete, but not as nice of shape as the ones on my bike now (some corrosion, and it looks like there may have been a repaired exhaust stud). Not a deal breaker, but what is the consensus about just swapping the cams? My only real concern is a mismatch in the journal wear of an higher mileage cam (50k mi vs 20k mi on the heads). Also, I forgot to order new exhaust gaskets 

This engine puts a lot of oil up into the cam/rocker area, u should be good to go. just use assembly lube mix recommended in the tech manual.

[Robert]

If you look in archives I think this has already been done with limited success and with dyno results. The cams really dont provide any real gains. I would also check journal specs as long as they are the same and as long as when you tighten them up they turn freely I dont think you would have a problem.

[Itinifni]

Howdy all, I've been reading this forum since I picked up my 97 Standard a few months ago, figure it's as good a time as any to open my mouth (figuratively speaking). Aside from being a long time Honda rider (started with a CT 70 in the mid-70s) I've spent 35 years on the technical side of the automotive industry so here's my $0.02.

As Robert suggested first thing to do is confirm the journal specs are the same. Assuming they are I'd inspect journals on both the original and replacement cams for any irregular wear. Also inspect the cam saddles and caps, again for any unusual wear. Chances are any problems will show up in the aluminum of the saddles/caps before on the cam journals.

If all that looks ok you're good to move on to the next step and I believe this is important.
I would not even consider using rocker arms that have worn in on one cam on another cam. There's a reason that you should always use new rockers (or lifters if that's the case) when installing a new cam, these are wear items that mate together during break-in.

What I would do assuming all parts are in serviceable condition:
Swap cams
Swap rocker arms and rocker shafts (the arms are also mated to their respective shafts) ***be sure to keep the individual arms on their original cam lobes***
I would also go so far as swapping the tappet adjusting screws from the original rockers into the replacement rockers keeping them with their respective valves (after all they too are mated together).

I'll admit, swapping the rocker shafts and adjusting screws may seem a little over the top but like I said, I would not consider using old cams from one engine with old rockers from another.

Good luck with the swap if you decide to do it.

BTW Great forum

Matt

[Corndog]

So the saga continues...

After discovering that the heads from the '97 49 bike had two R2 cams in it, it didn't make alot of sense to swap the heads (or cams) into a bike with the California heads/cams currently on my bike.

Instead, I pulled the valve covers off to check valve clearances. Most were good, a couple tight ones. However, I looked at the cams and low and behold:
Left Side
http://i.imgur.com/T8dd8k1.jpg

Right Side:
http://i.imgur.com/cYARswD.jpg

I've heard about this before, but I have no idea what the implications are.

Conveniently, ebay has a used Left R1 cam... but I need to check its journals vs spec.

[98valk]

So the saga continues...

After discovering that the heads from the '97 49 bike had two R2 cams in it, it didn't make alot of sense to swap the heads (or cams) into a bike with the California heads/cams currently on my bike.

Instead, I pulled the valve covers off to check valve clearances. Most were good, a couple tight ones. However, I looked at the cams and low and behold:
Left Side
http://i.imgur.com/T8dd8k1.jpg

Right Side:
http://i.imgur.com/cYARswD.jpg

I've heard about this before, but I have no idea what the implications are.

Conveniently, ebay has a used Left R1 cam... but I need to check its journals vs spec.

the one on ebay is the bike I had mentioned, one R1 and one R2.
so your's is bike No. 2 that is known for this. Pretty bad quality control by Honda.
will run much better with the same cams.

[Corndog]

Thanks. I love being different 

I am a bit concerned with the ebay cams installed with my current lifters. Both have been worn separately.

[98valk]

Thanks. I love being different 

I am a bit concerned with the ebay cams installed with my current lifters. Both have been worn separately.

there are no lifters, just rocker arms. many feel its not an issue.

[Corndog]

Thanks. I love being different  

I am a bit concerned with the ebay cams installed with my current lifters. Both have been worn separately.

there are no lifters, just rocker arms. many feel its not an issue.

Misspoke, but you got my drift. Thanks for the input! I really wish Honda would have their crap together when they built these 2 bikes... Maybe mine and the ebay bike were side by side on the assembly line  

[Corndog]

Conveniently, ebay has a used Left R1 cam... but I need to check its journals vs spec.

Well I'm a bit unsure about that cam now. The manual lists the service limit of the Journal OD's at 1.059". The ebay cam is right at the SL (1.0610, 1.0605, 1.0585, 1.0590). I'm going to have to sit with this.

[pancho]

I can't stand it any more,, my 49 state 97 has never gotten better than 32 MPG with several states of carb tuning and Cobra pipes,, stock size jets at present,, I've often wondered why. I am going to pull the covers and take a look at the cams,, plus it's a good time to check the lash adjustment.

[98valk]

Howdy all, I've been reading this forum since I picked up my 97 Standard a few months ago, figure it's as good a time as any to open my mouth (figuratively speaking). Aside from being a long time Honda rider (started with a CT 70 in the mid-70s) I've spent 35 years on the technical side of the automotive industry so here's my $0.02.

As Robert suggested first thing to do is confirm the journal specs are the same. Assuming they are I'd inspect journals on both the original and replacement cams for any irregular wear. Also inspect the cam saddles and caps, again for any unusual wear. Chances are any problems will show up in the aluminum of the saddles/caps before on the cam journals.

If all that looks ok you're good to move on to the next step and I believe this is important.
I would not even consider using rocker arms that have worn in on one cam on another cam. There's a reason that you should always use new rockers (or lifters if that's the case) when installing a new cam, these are wear items that mate together during break-in.

What I would do assuming all parts are in serviceable condition:
Swap cams
Swap rocker arms and rocker shafts (the arms are also mated to their respective shafts) ***be sure to keep the individual arms on their original cam lobes***
I would also go so far as swapping the tappet adjusting screws from the original rockers into the replacement rockers keeping them with their respective valves (after all they too are mated together).

I'll admit, swapping the rocker shafts and adjusting screws may seem a little over the top but like I said, I would not consider using old cams from one engine with old rockers from another.

Good luck with the swap if you decide to do it.

BTW Great forum

Matt

Great post Matt,
don't be shy, keep posting.
And welcome to the forum and the Wonderful World of Valkyries.

[98valk]

Conveniently, ebay has a used Left R1 cam... but I need to check its journals vs spec.

Well I'm a bit unsure about that cam now. The manual lists the service limit of the Journal OD's at 1.059". The ebay cam is right at the SL (1.0610, 1.0605, 1.0585, 1.0590). I'm going to have to sit with this.

I looked at the manual last night, it also states to check the head journals and then subtract to the two #s to get an oil clearance #. The oil clearance is the past/fail measurement if I read it right. it was late when I read it.