removing the flag from the soldier's monument.

[hubcapsc]

I got several texts overnight from my buddies in Tennessee, "Don't let them
take the flag!"...

It will take a 2/3's vote by the legislature to remove it from the monument (I guess
they'll be after the monument next?) ... On the day that happens, it will come down.
Anyone interested in any kind of political office in the future will have to come out
for bringing it down now. Lindsey Graham... Gov. Haley... all of them...

State Senator Danny Verdin (he's the red faced guy with the tie) was the speaker
at the Confederate Memorial Day observation I went to this year. If we still have
more than 1/3 like him, it stays up. If not, ... change is the way of the world... we
all have our opinions about good vs. bad change...



Small minded people like Roof are likely to think that Wint, the murderer and
arsonist from DC, represents all black people. The same small minded people
also think Roof represents the Confederate Flag.

-Mike "and Gold's Gym"

[The emperor has no clothes]

My knowledge of the use of the confederate flag is very limited. But I'm curious why it is an important symbol to people ? Does its use mean people still want to secede from the U.S. ? Is its use a way of honoring those who died in the Civil War ?

[G-Man]

This is gonna be bad.  "Never let a crisis go to waste".

The flag means COMPLETELY different things to different people.  So different, that the meanings for some contradict the meaning for others.

This is a totally Southern thing and folks above the Mason-Dixie line or west of mountain time line need to stay out of it.     

 

[Alien]

I too am curious as to it's meaning.  I've read "Heritage not hate" a lot lately.  Ok, so someone please explain for those of us who are not southern.  I see folks flying that flag in certain rural parts of California too and that has always perplexed me.  No judgment, just genuinely curious.

Ride Safe,

Alien

[Rams]

This is something for the people of South Carolina to decide.   Not for anyone else.

When I see the Stars and Bars, I think of it as a symbol of defiance to a federal government from a different time but, I don't share the history that some do.   I can understand why some see it as racist and why some see it as a symbol of their heritage.     Is it time for the Stars and Bars to be folded up and put away?    Not my call, I don't live in SC. 

I do know this, I would not take kindly to an outsider demanding that Kentucky change it's flag.   Not because I'm especially proud of Kentucky's flag or it's symbolic image but, it's a state's right, not an outsider's opinion that matters.

[Alien]

I get that, but the Confederate flag is not the South Carolina state flag.  The state flag has a palmetto tree on it.

[Davemn]

I don't understand why you would want to be constantly reminded of losing the war.

[solo1]

The way that I see it, and I'm in Indiana, is that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of pride and independence to those in the southern states. It has nothing to do with slavery any more.

I have no problem with independence on the part of any region or state.  It should be left up to the individual states and not decided on at the national level by do gooders and weak kneed politicians who are meddling in state's business.

To me, it is no different than me flying the Gadsen flag (Don't tread on Me)  below the Betsy Ross.

If it were flown ABOVE the Stars and Stripes, then it would be different.

My .02 for what it's worth.

[Rams]

I get that, but the Confederate flag is not the South Carolina state flag.  The state flag has a palmetto tree on it.

Understood.

I still say it's their decision.    All I can say to those that don't like it is, if the folks of SC want to keep it, don't spend your tourist dollars there.     I've never had a Stars and Bars flag.    But, I'm also not from SC or the south.    I'm not arguing for them to keep or get rid of it, I'm just saying it's not my call.

Would flying a US flag from that era be seen as anti-Stars and Bars?

[hubcapsc]

My knowledge of the use of the confederate flag is very limited. But I'm curious why it is an important symbol to people ? Does its use mean people still want to secede from the U.S. ? Is its use a way of honoring those who died in the Civil War ?

Or served. To Wade Hampton it stood for Liberty and Independence.

-Mike "and to me..."

[The emperor has no clothes]

My knowledge of the use of the confederate flag is very limited. But I'm curious why it is an important symbol to people ? Does its use mean people still want to secede from the U.S. ? Is its use a way of honoring those who died in the Civil War ?

Or served. To Wade Hampton it stood for Liberty and Independence.

-Mike "and to me..."

Liberty and Independence from the U.S. ?

[dreamaker]

I agree!!  They should get rid of all the Confederate Flags. That is the problem, Right!!.  See that way it will solve all our problems, we will all be the same, we will hug each other, walk into the sunset, and live happily ever after.

Give me a break!!!

The thing that pisses me off, is when people and groups that constantly rub our noses, in bad things from the past, that we have had nothing to do with.  They call it, memorializing, paying honor to, and remembering.   I call it Exploitation for ones gain!!!!!

One thing Americans never run out of, and that is, who to blame and excuses. Come on!! Glow up!!!  A Confederate Flag is going the remind you of something you never had part of, Please, tell me you are not that stupid.

The ones that bring up that silly crap, are the ones you should keep an eye on, they got to be a cry babies and got to be mental midgets.

So what they are trying to tell us, eliminating an object will solve our problems.  The truth is they are the problem and not the solution.

[Serk]

To many native Americans (That's Indians to you and me), and Japanese Americans (Think FDR's Japanese internment camps during WWII) and I'm sure many other groups, the US flag is a symbol of murder and oppression.

Should we take it down too?

Or... can we look past the bad, while acknowledging it, and celebrate the good things that flag stands for instead?

[GiG]

Mike:
This debate reminds me of the discussion we had at Brasstown Bald last year.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but it is interesting to follow.

Historically, vanquished armies of internal conflicts are not allowed to fly their colors, under penalty of death. Didn't happen in this case. So, under the guise of re-uniting our fractured Union, the South was allowed to keep their symbol.

Recent incidents have nothing to do with Stars & Bars  - it's all opportunism and revisionism 

[Bonzo]

Just a question, If a German immigrant who served in WWII, as a German soldier died and was buried in a US cemetery, would you have a problem with the German battle flag of WWII on his grave?

[Serk]

it's all opportunism and revisionism 

[GiG]

Serk: ^  ^

[hubcapsc]

Maybe a state referendum would settle this for good.

No. The losers have not given up in the past, they won't
give up in the future.

There was a state referendum about Mississippi's flag a few years
ago, but the current crop of problem-finders are bringing it
to front again...

http://www.businessinsider.com/mississippi-confederate-flag-debate-2015-6

-Mike

[Oss]

The Democratic Party (which was the predominant party in South Carolina in the many years before the Civil War) had a legitimate beef with the Northern States in that Slavery was a compromise made to ensure the Union survived the years after the Revolutionary War.

After the 1st Continental Congress failed it was keeping slaves in the South that ensured the Union.

Then there were many battles before the Civil War, notably in Kansas as territories sought to become states with fraud, killings and mayhem

The Confederacy failed at great cost to our country leading Congress to greatly erode States rights right up to todays SCOTUS   and now personal freedoms are also in peril

The losers got to keep the flag, as long as it flies lower than the Stars and Stripes it dont bother me any

But It isnt my fight and I suppose to many the flag of the Confederate States of America
 honors those who fought bravely and perished and their kin for a cause they believed
guaranteed by the Constitution

I wonder if the South won if we would all be speaking German now though

[The emperor has no clothes]

UhOh, OSS are you implying that southerners would have let Hitler run rampant ? 

[Oss]

no

 

but entry to the war might well have been delayed till too late

we will never know

[signart]

People need to study history. Slavery was and is bad. Negroes were treated just as badly in the north and worse than some slaves in southern states. They lived and worked in deplorable conditions and were beaten and discriminated against. Many blacks fought for the Confederacy. One million souls did not give their lives on either side of battle, for the black people so wrongly brought here. The U.S. flag flew over the ships that brought the slave here and you all know who they were bought from. The Cherokee tribal council met and came down on the side of the Confederacy to help stop the federal invasion of the property owners of the southern states. We all know what happened to them. Have'nt heard much from them about any symbols.
The country was founded on Confederacy. Ever hear of the Articles of Confederation? States were admitted to the Confederacy one by one and the country was designed to be made up of independent states.
Lincoln, (the most progressive president this country has seen to date,) even wanted to save the Union (or Confederacy) at the cost of slavery and continue to allow it.
As one brave citizen soldier from Tennessee fought against all odds, and held ground as lone survivor of his company was asked by the Union regiment as to why he still fights, he replied, "Because you're here!"
One lesson I hope people get about the flag over the memorial in South Carolina, THAT IS NOT THE STARS AND BARS. Study the truth, not just what you hear on TV.
That flag was designed to differentiate the Stars and Bars from the Union flag during battle. The Stars and Bars resembles the Union flag from a distance. There are many Confederate flags.

[Jess from VA]

It is unfortunate that the Stars and Bars is so closely identified with slavery to so many.

The South did not go to war for slavery, they want to war against an overreaching federal government invading their sovereign States.

The vast majority of those who fought for the South (like 97%) never had slaves, and were not fighting for slavery, but for their own perceived liberty and freedom.  The flag is about states rights, and personal freedom and liberty, not about slavery which has been gone now for quite some time (but remains one of the greatest mistakes of injustice of humankind and US history).  States rights has also been successfully attacked/maligned/propagandized to be associated with slavery and jim crow and all things bad, but in its purest form is nothing more than a desire to have a more decentralized form of self  government, with more decisions and power reserved to the states, and ultimately to the people themselves.

I do not equate love of county with love of federal government.  Many do.  But more and more, love of federal government is seemingly the antithesis of love of country.

I am in favor of any and all symbols reflecting discontent with federal government, and love of individual liberty and freedom as plainly spelled out in our Constitution (which the federal government has marginalized and ignored for the last century).  This includes the Stars and Bars, despite its unfortunate association with slavery.  (I did not always feel this way)

The earlier Gadsden Flag of Revolutionary times is perhaps a less controversial symbol of individual liberty and freedom, but that was against the British crown, who has not been our enemy for quite some time.  

The enumerated powers are a list of items found in Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution that set forth the authority of Congress.  In summary, Congress may exercise the powers that the Constitution grants it, subject to the individual rights listed in the Bill of Rights.  Moreover, the Constitution expresses various other limitations on Congress, such as the one expressed by the Tenth Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The Tenth Amendment (Amendment X) to the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, was ratified on December 15, 1791.  It expresses the principle of federalism, which undergirds the entire plan of the original Constitution, by stating that the federal government possesses only those powers delegated to it by the Constitution.  All remaining powers are reserved for the states or the people.

The Tenth Amendment is similar to an earlier provision of the Articles of Confederation: "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled."  After the Constitution was ratified, South Carolina Representative Thomas Tudor Tucker and Massachusetts Representative Elbridge Gerry separately proposed similar amendments limiting the federal government to powers "expressly" delegated, which would have denied implied powers.

[Rams]

I don't pretend to be an expert on Confederate flags.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

[signart]

That is the point, people hear something and assume. Each should study for themselves and not just go along with what the media or what's popular for spineless politicians.

[The emperor has no clothes]

To many native Americans (That's Indians to you and me), and Japanese Americans (Think FDR's Japanese internment camps during WWII) and I'm sure many other groups, the US flag is a symbol of murder and oppression.

Should we take it down too?

Or... can we look past the bad, while acknowledging it, and celebrate the good things that flag stands for instead?

Thats what I'm trying to understand. What are the good things the flag represents ?

[KG]

We did not like the British taxing us so we rebelled and started our own country.



There were issues in our Government that the North and South could not agree on including slavery but it was not the most important issue.

The South succeeded from the Union but the Union would not allow it and we wound up in a civil war.

My ancestors from the South stood up for what they believed was right and so did the ones from the North. The North just happened to win. What would have happened if England had won the American Revolution?

We still have the Alamo where we fought the Mexican Government for what turned into Texas. What if the Mexicans  wanted to tear down the Alamo?

We have Black history month and holidays for Martin Luther King and stories about Rosa Parks and museums for what they have done throughout history to keep their heritage alive.

If we would tell them we are going to tear down the hotel where Martin Luther King was shot there would be riots in the streets as we would be taking away part of their heritage.

My Family died on both sides of the civil war. The fact that most of my family fought for the South is part of my family history and my heritage.

Down the highway from me is the Alex Haley house and museum they keep it open and preserve what he did and that is he wrote a book.

Downtown Memphis has a park with a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest and he and his wife are buried under the statue. I don't agree with what he did after the war but he was a good general.
They want to remove the statue and move him and his wife to another resting place after all these years.

I don't know if flying the confederate flag over the capitol is that good of an ideal but to try and eradicate all signs of the Confederate Army would be a big injustice to all who fought and died for what they believed in.

If you don't remember the past you are doomed to repeat it.

[hubcapsc]

To many native Americans (That's Indians to you and me), and Japanese Americans (Think FDR's Japanese internment camps during WWII) and I'm sure many other groups, the US flag is a symbol of murder and oppression.

Should we take it down too?

Or... can we look past the bad, while acknowledging it, and celebrate the good things that flag stands for instead?

Thats what I'm trying to understand. What are the good things the flag represents ?

Liberty and Independence from the U.S. ?

Some of us aren't trying very hard to understand 

-Mike

[Serk]

To many native Americans (That's Indians to you and me), and Japanese Americans (Think FDR's Japanese internment camps during WWII) and I'm sure many other groups, the US flag is a symbol of murder and oppression.

Should we take it down too?

Or... can we look past the bad, while acknowledging it, and celebrate the good things that flag stands for instead?

Thats what I'm trying to understand. What are the good things the flag represents ?

I can only speak for myself, but for me that flag represents Southern culture. Respect for elders and ladies, standing up to powerful bullies, doing what you feel is right even when the world is against you, rugged individualism, a can-do attitude and willingness to help your neighbor, self reliance, when something bad happens and someone says "Someone should do something!" realizing that you're someone, and doing something, etc. etc. etc...

Do we always live up to those ideals? Of course not. Slavery and segregation were huge negatives against our culture. But it wasn't that far back that the founders of the United States owned slaves themselves as well (Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and George Washington, among others, all owned slaves.) Do we write off the accomplishments of those men as well because of it?

You could even argue that some of those ideals contradict with each other, but... to me... that's what the Southern flag represents.

As far as why it's still relative today, I feel it serves as a very real warning to the federal government that you can't push too far. Not  threat, just a gentle reminder that there are limits.


Addition - To me, the Confederate Flag is this guy:

[signart]

Exactly Serk. Not to mention bravery and sacrifice against all odds for what was right. Very small percentage of southerners had slaves, probably not many sent their sons to war. Just like so many politicians and privileged folks of today. Estimates now indicate upwards of one million dead from this war, a majority of those from the NORTH. Yet a full 20% of the southern population gave their lives, unsustainable losses.

[Jess Tolbirt]

here is a bit of trivia for ya,, the United States flag flew over the slave states longer than the battle flag of virginia,,for those that dont know, the confederate flag is the battle flag of VA

[BradValk48237]

2 Things....

The main reason this was all started is that some people noticed that the Confederate Flag was not lowered to half mast like all the other flags...... this was what started it

The problem was that the law written by the State legislature to allow the flag to fly at the memorial sated that the flag had too be flown at the top at all times AT THE MEMORIAL..... it is permanently attached to the top of the staff and has to be changed with a ladder and or a bucket truck..... Their meaning was good at the time they set up the law for the memorial.... they just for got basic flag etiquette.... the Capitol Staff was just doing as they were told to do

The media then began to push this out to the "PC" public..... including FOX news and said is this right...Hmmmmm... thats when the "S$%^" hit the fan...

Second is that lately in the media and Reality crap, the Flag has been regularly associated with Good ole boys (Red Necks) doing 'rowdy" things with the flag all over their person, trucks and homes......

Its a damn PC world and people need to just lighten up and live with it.......

[czuch]

This will be a big step in the eradication of the 1st amendment. To state rights level.
Walmart, Missippi flag, memorials, all bowing to ONE frikkin mood altering drug addled punk.
Good job. punk.
Dude, THE COUP IS IN PLACE AND HAPPENING .

[threevalks]

here is a bit of trivia for ya,, the United States flag flew over the slave states longer than the battle flag of west virginia,,for those that dont know, the confederate flag is the battle flag of WV

             Jess I believe you mean Virginia, not West Virginia.

https://www.google.com/search?q=battle+flag+of+virginia&es_sm=93&biw=1280&bih=891&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=JbqJVbTDI4iegwT8lYLwBw&sqi=2&ved=0CEMQsAQ

[hubcapsc]

here is a bit of trivia for ya,, the United States flag flew over the slave states longer than the battle flag of west virginia,,for those that dont know, the confederate flag is the battle flag of WV

             Jess I believe you mean Virginia, not West Virginia.

https://www.google.com/search?q=battle+flag+of+virginia&es_sm=93&biw=1280&bih=891&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=JbqJVbTDI4iegwT8lYLwBw&sqi=2&ved=0CEMQsAQ

The Army of Northern Virginia... Maybe that's where the direction crept in  .
West Virginia is the part of Virginia the Yankees carved off before the citizenry began
to take the war seriously.

-Mike

[signart]

They didn't want it flown at half staff to honor any conservative effort, so it was mandated to fly at full staff.
 All good southerners mourn & regret the senseless killing of those 9 AMERICANS. Those people were innocent AMERICANS. It was awful and not one bit more awful because their skin was black. A deranged idiot took their lives.

 It's a heart problem folks, not a gun problem, and it's sure not a flag problem.

[Bonzo]

Article one of the South Carolina article of secession:
 The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D. 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue.
The first war against slavery in The United states started around 1829 or 39 when Mexico banned slavery and Texians as they were known then got antsy. It ended with the Mexican American War when we took by force Texas north from Mexico. 
 Just a PS the nicest people I know come from Texas

[Jess Tolbirt]

here is a bit of trivia for ya,, the United States flag flew over the slave states longer than the battle flag of west virginia,,for those that dont know, the confederate flag is the battle flag of WV

              Jess I believe you mean Virginia, not West Virginia.

https://www.google.com/search?q=battle+flag+of+virginia&es_sm=93&biw=1280&bih=891&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=JbqJVbTDI4iegwT8lYLwBw&sqi=2&ved=0CEMQsAQ

you are correct, mistake corrected,, Bev my GF is from west virginia and its just habit to put the west in there..
thanks for catching the mistake

[The emperor has no clothes]

To many native Americans (That's Indians to you and me), and Japanese Americans (Think FDR's Japanese internment camps during WWII) and I'm sure many other groups, the US flag is a symbol of murder and oppression.

Should we take it down too?

Or... can we look past the bad, while acknowledging it, and celebrate the good things that flag stands for instead?

Thats what I'm trying to understand. What are the good things the flag represents ?

I can only speak for myself, but for me that flag represents Southern culture. Respect for elders and ladies, standing up to powerful bullies, doing what you feel is right even when the world is against you, rugged individualism, a can-do attitude and willingness to help your neighbor, self reliance, when something bad happens and someone says "Someone should do something!" realizing that you're someone, and doing something, etc. etc. etc...

Serk, those are all great attributes. I'm wondering though if there would be a better symbol for them other than the battle flag of a very devisive war ?

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/confederate-flag-furor/south-carolina-lawmakers-move-debate-confederate-flag-removal-n380236