Countdown to government shutdown

[Rams]

Actually, bias is showing all over the place on all sides of the issue. If you assign pejorative labels such as liberal, Rethuglican, Halfrican, Obummer, Teapothead, etc., you are telegraphing your bias by tossing insulting language into the argument. That works well if you want an echo chamber but tends to brand the user as unserious in an open discussion.

A very telling consideration is the number of people who oppose the new healthcare law not only along party lines but depending upon how the question is phrased. More people are in favor of the Affordable Care Act than are in favor of Obamacare, even though they are the exact same thing.

Another telling consideration is the hardline Republican opposition to a health insurance mandate now when the idea originated with the Heritage Foundation (a right-wing think tank) in 1993 and was adopted by Governor Mitt Romney in Massachusetts and seems to be pretty popular. The insurance mandate idea came about as a way to combat the idea of a single payer system (which actually is socialized medicine) that was pushed by Ted Kennedy for years. In 1993, forcing people to purchase health insurance was considered a move toward personal responsibility and 20 years later it's defined by the same people as Socialism.

As far as who will and who won't negotiate with whom, I'm sure there is enough responsibility to spread around but a link to Addicting Info (complete with Fox News video) puts an interesting perspective on the issue: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/10/01/sean-hannity-fox-news-breaking/

All of this information is out there. You only have to look for it. Have fun boys and girls, my arm is finally healed enough that I can get on the Phat Gurl and leave politics behind for awhile, which is exactly what I intend to do. 

Some valid points.   But to be clear, I really don't care where the idea came from, I'm old enough to remember when this idea was initially originated, didn't like it then, don't like it now.   All men (and women) were created equal, read that some where.     But, that is not a statement in reference to wealth but to opportunity and rights.    I fully support equal opportunity and rights but, my rights only go so far and when I start to encroach on another person's rights, my right start to wane.    No one has a right to a free ride.

As I said previously, it's all about perspective.   Those who think they can continue to borrow and not feel the consequences of their actions versus those who realize that freedom isn't free.   The division within this nation is growing.  

[Daddie O]

It is Constitutional, and the Supreme Court (which is the arbiter in such matters) has ruled it as such.  The congresses rights are enumerated in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, and have been expanded by amendments such as amendment 16.  Give the Constitution a read!  Pay special attention to the "necessary and proper" clause.

[musclehead]

It is Constitutional, and the Supreme Court (which is the arbiter in such matters) has ruled it as such.  The congresses rights are enumerated in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, and have been expanded by amendments such as amendment 16.  Give the Constitution a read!

only when interpreted as a tax, it was sold as a fine. they lied, live with it.

[Daddie O]

You guys sure like the phrases, "Get used to it.", and "Live with it."  It comes off as snarky, but if I am to speak in terms you are familiar with then I will.  Obamacare is the law "Get used to it."  You may not like it, but "Live with it."

[Rams]

You guys sure like the phrases, "Get used to it.", and "Live with it."  It comes off as snarky, but if I am to speak in terms you are familiar with then I will.  Obamacare is the law "Get used to it."  You may not like it, but "Live with it."

Speaking only for myself, that's precisely what I'm doing while I exercise my rights to free speech.  Get used to it.    Yes, I'll live with it until we get it changed or deleted.    That is also allowed in the Constitution.   Live with it.

[Mapper]

What if everyone here arguing all different sides could meet face to face and sit down for a beer or two? 

I wonder if more discussion is happening here than within our government.  Perhaps they could all sit down for a beer?  Naive, I know....

[Serk]

Obamacare is the law "Get used to it."  You may not like it, but "Live with it."

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

[Rams]

Naive, I know....

Isn't that called an Obama Beer Summit or something like that?  

While I'm sure some of my biker buds consume their share of the spirits, sorry I quit that.   But, be my guest and have one for me.  

[Patrick]

What if everyone here arguing all different sides could meet face to face and sit down for a beer or two? 

I wonder if more discussion is happening here than within our government.  Perhaps they could all sit down for a beer?  Naive, I know....

Another beer summit ? That should work !

I know a whole lot of liberals, flaming liberals, and can sit and have a few beers with them and go out somewhere and have a good time. We're good friends with many liberals. There are some here, that I'm not so sure I could that with.

[hubcapsc]

Obamacare is expected to increase patient demand for medical services. Combine that with a worsening shortage of doctors, and next year you may have to wait a little longer to get a doctor's appointment. And the crowded emergency room may become even more so.

                  http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/02/health/obamacare-doctor-shortage/

whenever there's a problem, the government steps in and makes sure it affects everyone...

-Mike

[old2soon]

For those folks saying the A C A is a good thing-just heard on my local news that The Shepherd of The Hills show at Branson Mo. will be shutting down the 6 day a week show after 54 years.  The reason given by the current owners-they can NOT afford the fines or the A C A for their 90 seasonal workers. But if you ask deception central it's all good.  Ask the 90 folks out of work from that show.  RIDE SAFE.

[Daddie O]

Talk about deception central.  If they truly couldn't afford it the government would give them the tax credits in order to be able to.  So who is deceiving who?

[Rams]

Talk about deception central.  If they truly couldn't afford it the government would give them the tax credits in order to be able to.  So who is deceiving who?

The Government?    And, just where do they get their money?    Hmmm, the well is deep but, it's going dry.

[f6john]

Talk about deception central.  If they truly couldn't afford it the government would give them the tax credits in order to be able to.  So who is deceiving who?

The Government?    And, just where do they get their money?    Hmmm, the well is deep but, it's going dry.

    Ron, Daddie O is probably referring to himself and California since they almost singlehandedly funded the government.

[musclehead]

You guys sure like the phrases, "Get used to it.", and "Live with it."  It comes off as snarky, but if I am to speak in terms you are familiar with then I will.  Obamacare is the law "Get used to it."  You may not like it, but "Live with it."

when you say 'give the constitution a read' that comes off as snarky as well.

[fudgie]

Wouldn't it be great if the Gov shut down and nobody cared!

I dont care

[fudgie]

. Combine that with a worsening shortage of doctors, and next year you may have to wait a little longer to get a doctor's appointment. And the crowded emergency room may become even more so.

     

EMS is changing that. 9 States already do a Community Paramedic service. We are moving towards it here in Ind. Our EMS service is starting to put stuff in order to get legislation changed to allow this change.

[fudgie]

So I hear that all the people that are fourloghed get back pay. So why cant they just continue to pay them now? Whether you pay them now or later its still the same amount of $.  ???

[Varmintmist]

It is Constitutional, and the Supreme Court (which is the arbiter in such matters) has ruled it as such.  The congresses rights are enumerated in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, and have been expanded by amendments such as amendment 16.  Give the Constitution a read!  Pay special attention to the "necessary and proper" clause.

AFTER the SCOTUS REWROTE it they were able to make it legal, not before.  Check out your civics book and the Consitiution, that is NOT within their power.

The Pres. has re written it 19 times and failed to implement it because it is unworkable. 2000 times so far giving his special interests a pass. Executive brance DOES NOT have the authority to rewrite laws that have been passed. They can simply not enforce them (voting rights act and Black Panthers, DOMA) but they dont get to change them.

The House has the power of the purse, so it is Constitutional for them to fund or defund as they see fit.

ALL spending (tax) bills MUST originate in the house, per the Constitution. UCA (unafordable care act) originated in the Senate.

The members in the house won their elections also.

[PAVALKER]

So I hear that all the people that are fourloghed get back pay. So why cant they just continue to pay them now? Whether you pay them now or later its still the same amount of $.  ???

I read that somewhere as well.  Not sure if it's true tho... but I wouldn't doubt it.  If that is the case, then what about the people that are considered essential and have to remain working...  will they get double pay for the paid time-off/vacation they missed out on?  Oh I doubt that... so where is the fairness and balance?  I know the military is required to continue working and will be paid back pay.

With the military it's a given to pay back pay so there is no loss of security....  I remember going thru a few of those Govt Shutdowns.  You can't technically continue to pay them what they would normally get paid if there technically isn't a budget approved, even tho the powers that be will vote to provide back pay as it seems to cleanse them of the guilt for playing politics.  I don't doubt that the NPS folks and other government employees might get paid back pay even tho they were furloughed.  So the only folks that really suffer is the taxpayer.... doesn't appear to save any money and only denies us of government related services..... and gives paid vacations to some govenment employees it seems.

[musclehead]

So I hear that all the people that are fourloghed get back pay. So why cant they just continue to pay them now? Whether you pay them now or later its still the same amount of $.  ???

because if they paid them they couldn't use them as a political football.

[Jess from VA]

I do have compassion for G and military going without pay, and back pay is not a given (but almost).  Of course it is not Fed employee fault, it was also not private employee fault either.

But really, the private sector has suffered greatly for the last eight years; millions with no work, millions quit looking for work, private business struggling to stay afloat and in business.  Why should Fed employees be exempt from risk, why shouldn't Fed employees share in the hope and change?

I just discovered my local military commissary (grocery) has closed.... I guess eating is not essential.       

[G-Man]

Obamacare is the law of the land. 

Parts of it can't be delayed at the request of all republican congresspeople, more and more democrat congresspeople, unions, and citizens, but it can be delayed (waivered) 14,000 times, have 700 pages added, and $900 Billion added to it (more than doubling it's original cost)?

OK, you've convinced me.  Laws can only be changed and twisted when it suits your ideology, otherwise they're written in stone.  How liberal of you.

[G-Man]

The law was given another affirmation by the majority in the 2012 election.

51% of the people who voted is hardly affirmation of the AFCA. 

You keep saying that the law is the law and it can't be changed, and you want to give US civic lessons?   

[G-Man]

Daddy O,
You think or assume way too much.      

Says the man who thinks Obamacare will be repealed.  

Or go broke.   Again, let's consider CA and how well they are doing financially.    

Or, do I need to site other examples of failed social experiments?

Correct me if I am wrong, but you live in KY right?  For every tax dollar KY sends to the Federal Government, KY get $1.51 cents back.  Conversely, California gets back $0.78 for every dollar sent to the Federal Government.  So who is paying your way KY?  KY paid $23,150,555,000 in taxes to the Federal Govt.  Conversely, CA paid $313,998,874,000 to the Federal Government.  Which state is carrying the other?  Without CA paying your state's way, KY couldn't even provide basic services.  Maybe KY is the failed social experiment.  If CA was keeping that $313 billion dollars or even getting back closer to $1 for every dollar it sends it wouldn't be in a 16 billion dollar a year deficit would it.  Maybe you lazy Kentuckians should get jobs and pay your own way.  Buncha takers.  It takes some nerve to have CA paying your way as you point a finger and say see they have a budget shortfall.  Because CA isn't only paying KY's way, it's paying most of the "red" states way, TX excluded.  In fact TX is the only "red" state that sends more than it takes.

If California were it's own country (which I'm sure many of you would like), it would have a huge budget surplus.  The problem is the Federal Government wouldn't be able to afford to subsidize the red states.

All you have done is proven that the social experiments really don't work.  If each state took care of itself, according to you, California would be fine.  But because the larger states with more money have to pay a higher percentage of their income for the smaller states with less money, the larger state is failing financially. 

I know, that's not what you meant, but it is what you said. 

[PAVALKER]

I do have compassion for G and military going without pay, and back pay is not a given (but almost).  Of course it is not Fed employee fault, it was also not private employee fault either.

But really, the private sector has suffered greatly for the last eight years; millions with no work, millions quit looking for work, private business struggling to stay afloat and in business.  Why should Fed employees be exempt from risk, why shouldn't Fed employees share in the hope and change?

I just discovered my local military commissary (grocery) has closed.... I guess eating is not essential.       

Yep...  CONUS Commissaries closed alright..... they were open the first day to offload the perishables only (to where I don't know).  The OSEAS Commissaries remain open however....    As for eating being an option, there are other local establishments that provide grocery options.   It's just another BS move to throw more scare into the mix.  Yet.... the politicians still get their big money... they just hurt the little guy.

[G-Man]

Actually, bias is showing all over the place on all sides of the issue. If you assign pejorative labels such as liberal, Rethuglican, Halfrican, Obummer, Teapothead, etc., you are telegraphing your bias by tossing insulting language into the argument. That works well if you want an echo chamber but tends to brand the user as unserious in an open discussion.

[G-Man]

So I hear that all the people that are fourloghed get back pay. So why cant they just continue to pay them now? Whether you pay them now or later its still the same amount of $.  ???

Because then they can't use terms like Terrorist, Hostage Takers, Arsonists, Evil, Racist, etc. to describe a group of people who believe differently and are demonstrating their intentions legally.

[Jess from VA]

BarryCades. 

You've read about blocking the wide open WWII memorial, now this..... and it's privately owned.

http://www.infowars.com/barrycades-government-tries-to-shut-down-privately-owned-mount-vernon/

[Daddie O]

Back to the civics lesson.  Of course laws can be created, altered, repealed.  Here is the kicker:  You need the votes to do so.  The Republicans do not have the votes to do so, therefore, the Republicans can not alter or repeal the law they despise.  They have tried many, many times, and failed miserably.  The ACA is the law of the land.  It is already funded.  You can enroll now.  The government shut down does not stop this.  

When I say give the Constitution a read it is not to be snarky.  I really think you need to read the Constitution.  When you say the law is unconstitutional, and the power to implement the law is clearly in the Constitution, it makes me believe you have not read the Constitution.  Before you parrot what is unconstitutional you should get familiar with the document. 

This may come as a shocker to many Republicans, but just because you don't like a law, it doesn't automatically mean the law is unconstitutional.  Just because you disagree with a President, it doesn't mean he should be impeached.

[musclehead]

Back to the civics lesson.  Of course laws can be created, altered, repealed.  Here is the kicker:  You need the votes to do so.  The Republicans do not have the votes to do so, therefore, the Republicans can not alter or repeal the law they despise.  They have tried many, many times, and failed miserably.  The ACA is the law of the land.  It is already funded.  You can enroll now.  The government shut down does not stop this.  

When I say give the Constitution a read it is not to be snarky.  I really think you need to read the Constitution.  When you say the law is unconstitutional, and the power to implement the law is clearly in the Constitution, it makes me believe you have not read the Constitution.  Before you parrot what is unconstitutional you should get familiar with the document.

why don't you give the federalist papers a read  

one other thing, how many repubs voted for the law?

if republicans ever get control of both sides of congress and the presidency I'll know becuase of the howls of rage from the left....

[Daddie O]

What are you hoping I should glean from the Federalist Papers?  The idea that the authors were opposed to the Bill of Rights?  The papers argument stating the Confederation wasn't working?  The fact that they were written in support of the ratification of the Constitution?  Please expound further so that I may glean what point you were trying to make.

[cookiedough]

Impeach them all starting from top down plan and simple.

A lady at work knows someone who had a nice paying, good job at I believe she said the FDA (or something like that govt. owned).  Yesterday they had to be walked out of the building stating NO more work and no guarantees of retroactive pay for not working. 

Is that her fault, heck no.  Agree, govt. jobs are not safe anymore either. 

Join the rest of us hard working stiffs getting the shaft day in and day out.   

[Varmintmist]

Back to the civics lesson.  Of course laws can be created, altered, repealed.  Here is the kicker:  You need the votes to do so.  The Republicans do not have the votes to do so, therefore, the Republicans can not alter or repeal the law they despise.  They have tried many, many times, and failed miserably.  The ACA is the law of the land.  It is already funded.  You can enroll now.  The government shut down does not stop this.

Yes it can, not by the Pres.

The Republicans in the House HAVE the votes and the authority to defund the law.
They tried to work through the Dems and just repeal it, that didnt happen. They are now using their constitutional authority of being the part of congress that all spending bills must start and are not funding it which is why they won their elections.

[Daddie O]

Back to the civics lesson.  Of course laws can be created, altered, repealed.  Here is the kicker:  You need the votes to do so.  The Republicans do not have the votes to do so, therefore, the Republicans can not alter or repeal the law they despise.  They have tried many, many times, and failed miserably.  The ACA is the law of the land.  It is already funded.  You can enroll now.  The government shut down does not stop this.

Yes it can, not by the Pres.

The Republicans in the House HAVE the votes and the authority to defund the law.
They tried to work through the Dems and just repeal it, that didnt happen. They are now using their constitutional authority of being the part of congress that all spending bills must start and are not funding it which is why they won their elections.

You need to pass something through both houses of congress for it to become law, or a budget.  The House is exercising it's constitutional authority, but shirking their constitutional responsibilities.  That is why almost a million Federal employees are not being paid today.  Republicans were not elected to shut the government down.  Also, the only reason many were elected is because of gerrymandering. If not for gerrymandering the House would be under Democratic majority.

[Serk]

Republicans were not elected to shut the government down.

Speaking as a VERY reluctant Republican voter, that is EXACTLY what I voted for them to do.

[Daddie O]

Republicans were not elected to shut the government down.

Speaking as a VERY reluctant Republican voter, that is EXACTLY what I voted for them to do.

Wow, just wow.  You think a government shutdown is a good thing?  I'm speechless at the ignorance displayed in such a comment.

[Varmintmist]

Both houses have to pass BILLS before they become laws. The house and seanate do not pass laws.
They are all ignoring their constitutional responsiblities because they have not passed a budget in 5 years. What is in contention is a CR.

The House has sent multiple CR's to the Senate that would fund the operations of the govt. Every Democrat in congress now is the reason why the govt is shut down. The R's have sent multiple bills to the Senate that would fund the operations of the govt. NONE have been brought to the floor by the D senate leadership.
Because you dont agree with the House, who's members were voted in to stop the UCA, from districts drawn by states that the Dems lost because of UCA, does not mean that they are not doing what they are supposed to, it means that they are not doing what you want them to.

[Moonshot_1]

Republicans were not elected to shut the government down.

Speaking as a VERY reluctant Republican voter, that is EXACTLY what I voted for them to do.

Aw, ya done dun it now. DaddieO is speechless. 

I'll be for the shut down too.

But really, how bad is it?

We are a nation of Free People. That alone gives us hope.
We are still served by our local government
Our County government
and Our State government.

I think in the end we will discover that we can actually get by with a whole lot less of Federal government.

[Jess from VA]

Republicans were not elected to shut the government down.

Speaking as a VERY reluctant Republican voter, that is EXACTLY what I voted for them to do.

I'm with you on this.  They tried it the more diplomatic way a number of times, now they try it another way, all within the rules of the game.  This is a fight worth having.